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Edwin shakes his head as he looks toward Daniella in response to her question. "Hang on, ain't Manga that company that does those Japanese animation films. Akira and that Street Fighter Two cartoon? They were quite good."
"No, I've not heard of either of them, sorry," he said, slightly abashed at his lack of knowledge in such things. "I'll definitely have to go more mainstream with my choice."
He picked up the Nightwing comic again before his eyes scanned the Marvel display.
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Pepper found herself laughing lightly with Martha's great enthusiasm. "You know, with all these literary devices at my fingertips why on earth would I stick to one main genre? Adding a touch of surrealism could work out nicely. A Main character how imagines the world in different trappings when she's around different love-interests, reflected in the art and some of the literary devices used in that chapter or scene..." Oh yeah, this was a cool idea. It'd be fun to try her hands at that.
And then she overheard the conversation between the other two again and faced palm. Hard. There was even a slapping sound as palm met forehead. "Oh my god..." She gave Martha the universal sign of 'one moment', then stood and Stepped to the other two. "I couldn't help but overhear... I just... felt the need to correct some things."
She took a breath, then spoke, not waiting for the okay from Daniella Sage or Edwin Bridges Manga isn't a single company. And it is comics, just with a different cultural storytelling tradition and language. Companies still do monthly prints of series, though they all get printed in the same book versus individual issues. The books most people are familiar with are collected volumes more like what Western companies call Trade Paperbacks. Also, Nightwing is Dick Grayson, the first of Bruce Wayne's adopted kids to take on the roll of Robin, before eventually feeling that in order to establish himself as an adult he had to move out and change his moniker."
Wow, yikes. That was a lot. Keeping it pent up like that had been a bad idea, and letting it all out like that was kinda rude. She felt a little bad for it, but only a little.
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She was about to explain what her understanding of Magna was, when the woman chatting with Martha approached. And went into an explanation of Magna.
At first, Daniella wasn’t sure what to say, clearly she was some type of expert on Magna and comics.
Which wasn’t a bad thing, she just wondered if it was really necessary. At the mention of Darkwing, her dark eyes move to the issue Edwin was holding.
“Oh, well thank you for clearing up any misunderstanding there may have been about Magna.” Replied with British Shadow with a smile. “I’m not an expert on it, have only read a few here and there and seen some Anime based off it.”
Looking back to Edwin, “I was just telling my friend that Alucard would make an excellent character to Cosplay as.”
She didn’t know who Nightwing was, but she had defiantly heard of Bruce Wayne, he was Batman right?
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Pepper's ideas had fired Martha's enthusiasm to new heights too. A great deal of nodding and excited nodding followed.
Martha clearly found no fault in Pepper's pausing of their chat and eagerly hobbled and skipped to follow Pepper. Eager to hear what she had to say. Whatever it was, Martha was certain Pepper's explanation would be worth listening to.
Watching with wide eyes, Martha listened, leaned on her cane and paid close attention. Nodding more, she smiled to Pepper... clearly Pepper was amazing.
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Edwin double-took as the bright woman intruded on his conversation with Daniella. Saying nothing, he did give the Keeper a look before grinning at the wealth of information.
"Shit, you mean to tell me that this Nightwing was once the very same Dick from the Batman tv show? Played by Burt Ward?" An exaggerated expression was on his face as he placed the comic back on the rack. "Not to mention Chris O'Donnell in that awful film? Because if that's how Dick Grayson goes around, I don't want anything to do with that chump." He paused as he scanned between various Batman covers.
"Also, if he wanted to go at it alone, why a similar outfit and gimmick? Surely, he would have been better suited completely changing his alter ego, right? Seems like the guy has major issues." The levity in his voice was readily apparent, as was the grin on his face. He was only joking. Kinda.
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Pepper was somewhere between relieved and disappointed that Martha had obligingly paused their conversation, but the little blonde following her was definitely nice.
Though her focus was on the two in front of her for the most part - she definitely could have slipped into their conversation better than she had. "Alucard would definitely be fun to dress up as, he's got a very dynamic character design - there's a few options you could choose for costuming."
Turning to Edwin she wavered her hand. "Yes and no - He's Dick Grayson, but he's not Earth-Prime Dick Grayson. I'm not super familiar with the tv show - no re-runs of it that I ever remember seeing - so can't say there. And yes, that film was my first disappointment in DC. He's not like that at all."
She pulled a face as she acknowledged the existence of that travesty, but hurried to ad, "Have you ever seen the Teen Titans cartoon? That Robin's closer to the Dick Grayson who becomes Nightwing. Chronologically too. In the comics he spent a few years leading the Titans before his moniker switch. The whole thing was more of a maturity and coming of age marker than anything... Like moving out of your parent's place or going to College." She paused then added with a teasing smile "But you should see his first costume before you judge him for dressing up like Batman."[/color] Because hot damn, that thing was a bit... Disco Dan in flavor.
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Martha was obviously following Pepper with wide eyed amazement. Someone with a more suspicious mind might begin to wonder if Martha was rapidly becoming Pepper's Number One Fan.
With excitement she followed the discussion, giggling happily to join in Ediwn's observations and nodding to agree with Pepper too.
"I say, Mr Bridges...Miss Pepper...!" she added with a very English and cautious tone, "this is a most interesting topic! The whole Teen Titans chronology suddenly begins to make sense to me!"
"The fact that Dick Grayson and a few other heroes and heroines are allowed to show development and maturity... and this is reflected in their names and aliases, why don't we see development in many other heroes and heroines? Might an argument be made to suggest that heroes, for example Batman, occupy a role similar to the magnificent heroes of Greek myth?"
"The hero, Odyesseus, for example... his name meaning 'Man of Struggle', is a literal clue to the torments he endures in his quest to return home and the rescue of his kingdom from external threat. The same is true of the hero Achilles; his name meaning the Grief of his People, through which he begins to be the very personification and embodiment of the struggle his nation endures during the Trojan War." Martha was talking fast and swapping between the original Greek words and helpfully swiftly translating them to more familiar English analogs.
"This, I wonder, might explain," she added with equal excitement as her idea began to take shape, "why maturity and development is rarely seen in the ongoing stories of superheroes. The mission and the semiotic role the hero plays in their narrative is naturally always incomplete as they fulfill, not a narrative arc in a traditional three-act sense, but rather a mimetic and meta-narrative, occupation and exploration of a wider, perhaps even Cosmic, function." she blinked, aware her extemporized thoughts might have rambled, but she felt she needed to conclude, so meekly added;
"From the moment the hero is imbued with power, the heroes civilian alias takes on the properties of a secret name in the ancient Hermetic and Kabbalistic sense. A name, like that of the unfortunate goblin Rumplestiltskin, has an additional power that, if it becomes known, this knowledge can fatally wound the magician or Daemon posessing the cryptonym. In this instance, their public persona, through the agency of their heroic identitity completely identifies, through the fully liminal and Ekstatic theatricality of both their name and costume, their entire Cosmic purpose! Their whole origin story too, is often imbued with suitably supernatural or otherwise mysterious intervention, and typically aligns to their ultimate and eventual Cosmic project too. Setting them aside from Humanity."
"Thus we see little maturity and development because their whole being becomes entwined with both their name and inflexible mission."
Martha leaned hard on her cane and rubbed hard at her crippled hip. Clearly surprised at her sudden exploration of the role of the hero. Blinking, she paused to gather her thoughts and see what Pepper, Edwin and Daniella...but mostly Pepper...might outline as being redundant or incorrect.
Suddenly Martha became slightly worried that Sony and Warner Brothers were enacting a Semiotic or mystical spell upon an unsuspecting public.
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And therein lies the problem. Cartoons.
"No, I can't say I have," Edwin replied at mention of Teen Titans, chuckling. "This is actually my first experience in this world," he added, indicating the shop they were all chatting in.
Edwin was about to offer a polite hello to Martha before she started to explain in some detail, and using words that went beyond poor Edwin's brain power, how superheroes were akin to Greek mythology.
He stood, enraptured by the lesson in the comic book shop. Words and means went by him, instead, the weight of Martha's intelligence seemed to illuminate her in a new light, in a way he had never previously envisioned.
When she had finished, Edwin's mouth opened. Closed again. Stunned would be a good word.
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Awwww, the Asian was kinda disappointed there. More people needed to watch those cartoons, regardless of 'kid' status.
But before she could say more to him, Martha went off on a verbal explanation that left Pepper blinking and trying to process everything. After a heavy minute, she grimaced. "Confession time? I'm not sure I understood all that. So um..." She waved her hands, trying to clear the slate and not focus on the details of Martha's examples (Batman? Static? Nope).
"The basic gist of it seems to be your conclusion: That when a person comes into powers and chooses a moniker, they find themselves only able to embody the Superhero Identity and thus can't advance their character beyond taking up the mantle?" that was so weird to think about. Powers and Monikers. Was she becoming the Ideal concept of Pepper? And that it's interesting thought.
"I'm going to argue that the the apparent static nature of a character is a matter of Change Blindness instead of actually not changing. Batman is actually a good example of this - He doesn't talk much, and his actions alone seem to stay the same, but if you compare how and what he teaches each of his proteges you see changes in his views." She paused, then gestured to the Nightwing books.
"The First Robin in particular is interesting. They start in similar places - their families killed before their eyes, orphaned, and struggling with grief and trauma. Bruce Wayne set himself on a recursively worsening path. He developed depression, and Post-traumatic stress, and chose to seek Revenge. Yet by the time he comes to adopt and take on Dick Greyson, you can tell that his choice weighs heavy on him. He has Dick become Robin, and helps him bring his family's killer to Justice. The goal there to be providing for Grayson what he denied himself: Knowledge that he wasn't alone, peace of mind that things were done right, and the ability to fully grieve and move on to enjoy himself. By the time DC restarted things with the New 62, He was the single father of five - Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damien Wayne, and Cassandra Cain - and Tutored Barbara Gordon and Stephanie Brown. He's also one of the Board members of Arkham Asylum, so that he can help insure that various psychiatric patients get the best care, and aren't screwed over by instutional negligence. Most of his contacts in the underworld are actually people he's helped provide psychiatric help for...." She trailed off, then cleared her throat.
"I think, that what actually happens is that a Platonic Ideal, or a Cultural Consensus forms on what the Superhero in question should be. It's the Brooding Bat everyone thinks of when they see that symbol. The Boy Scout holding that Star Spangled Shield. That Amazon defending the earth. But what they actually are in the stories has far more depth and development then what your first thoughts bring up."
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Martha listens carefully. She was listening to follow the counter-argument and Pepper was making some sound points.
She wasn't sure if Pepper was competing or teaching. Martha decided to listen and learn. Nodding, she fell silent a while to see if others wanted to weigh in with their own observations.
One thing was clear, Pepper had a formidable knowledge of the comic book mythos.
"I daresay there is much in your assessment, Miss Pepper!" she began chirpily. "I suspect much of the character development of Batman over the years is more consistent to meet the requirements of present and changing demands of narrative veracity." she shrugs, not fully discounting Pepper's analysis of Batman's post-traumatic stress, but seems unconvinced it's a true feature of his Heroic stature.
"We must be careful not to permit surface elements of the writer's concepts and more modern transitory features distract from, as you rightly point out, the Platonic Ideals required by their almost Jungian Archetypal nature of the Hero and all that follows therein."
Martha was careful to smile sincerely and nod to Pepper to show her agreement with the notion of Plato's concepts.
"But that is, perhaps, part of the key element in my own thesis which is the Archetype. You mentioned yourself, Miss Pepper, that there is a cultural consensus about the way heroes become perceived and identified. We can trace this quite fully and clearly by the various paradigms in which, we can take Batman as an example, how he has changed over time. The infamous Dark Knight Returns stands out as a seminal moment and landmark!" she nods, again agreeing generally with Pepper.
"One can... If I may venture to suggest, only imagine that portraying Batman thus was somehow in-tune with a social consensus in the closing days of the collective Nihilism of the Cold-War and the working out of ideological conflict therein. Naturally, this means the struggle for cultural and economic hegemony between the old Soviet empire and the opposing powers of the NATO countries."
"And we can see the subtexts of that very same ideological conflict and its consequences outlines within the narrative of the Dark Knight returns too. The mutant, if largely powerless, feral underclass confined to the wastelands; they are the refuse of society dwelling where society wishes them to remain... On the dumping ground."
"Their recourse to violence and crime to simply survive. The glorification of the paragon of Superman and the humbling of other Heroes. We see Catwoman laid low. Green Arrow is maimed..." she rubs at her own crippled hip as she speaks now, "And the apotheosis of The Joker: held up for acclaim through the modern therapy of pop-psychology. A therapy which is neutralized by the return of the Dark Knight. With awful irony Batman's own return seals the fate of hundreds of innocent civilians in the ensuing rampage of The Joker!"
"His return is not a return of a Golden Age but the ushering in of a new Dark Age. The Dark Knight has, indeed, returned. But this narrative speaks more of the time of the writing than, I might argue, the original Batman. Perhaps what we witnessed with The Dark Knight Returns and the subsequent works that it inspired was not the real Batman at all!"
"Rather, we see a new incarnation of some renegade Hero. An outlaw of sorts. He's no longer the Batman of before; but a newly forged Archetype and Heroic exemplar. The Bruce Wayne of 1939 is gone. We are faced with some, perhaps even, Evil counterpart. In his wake we can no longer accept the selfless and Heroic Batman of 1939 - viewing such actions with, at best, humorous curiosity."
She theatrically shudders.
She's struck by a terrible thought. Again the specter of some evil intent by the Mass Media flashed before her eyes. Were 'They', some cabal of anonymous wizards, forging a new type of anti-hero to purposefully infect the Collective Unconcsious? Forever robbing the world of a notion of pure heroism.
Tiny Martha falls briefly silent and grips at her cane. Hoping against hope that such dark thaumaturgy was impossible.
"He acts more like some barely controlled Norse deity than some Greek paragon. In his own quest for Justice, Batman goes too far and, worse, he is self-aware about his own excesses. Perhaps this new, highly conflicted and intensely psychologically damaged, Batman is more the modern Archetype of The Sleeping Hero. The Hero having become horribly corrupted by his own time in the Wasteland and Underworld. Like some dreaded Revenant he returns from the dead to bring some kind of structural order to society. Having converted the unclean to his own purpose. But it's a violent purpose. Society can no longer be cleansed through Heroic and shining example. Superman's destruction of the blameless, nurturing and innocent desert with nuclear fire marks the end, in Miller's assessment at least, of the Heroic Paragon; but now this twisted and desperate society can be rescued only by brute force."
"Truly, this seems more dreadful and Nordic than Greek to my thinking. The Old Order is dead. This seems much more in keeping with the fiery terrors of Götterdämmerung than the Blessings of Elysia or Arcadia."
Martha pauses. Trying to keep track of where this thinking was going and catching her breath. Blinking again as she smiles sweetly to Pepper. Trying to hide a shudder, she's becoming enthralled by the direction the vibrant Pepper was taking tonight.
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