It's All Relative

[Benji]

As for this Carthian business, I really don't know. I have only ever read the Invictus covenant book, so I don't know anything about the Carthians. I do know that large scale plans that take time to put together and result in personal gain are the bread and butter of the Invictus, and if Zach has to lick some pale undead ass to get it done, he will. What exactly would a Carthian think of this situation? Zach wants stuff, and that's where I'm going with this. If there is something specifically un-Invictus you could point out, that would be a great help.

It's this collective action thing that you are trying to get going. Carthains are all about pooling resources so the Movement as a whole can get stuff done. Big sweeping social changes, like paving over a Rack to make a giant supermall for a more efficient rack, that just feels like a very ambitious Carthian project. It's obviously much much much larger than any single vampire can organize and take on himself.

The Invictus are more about the neonates finding an already powerful patron and agreeing to support their interests and their plans before the neonate's own desires. In exchange, the neonate gets a powerful vampire with experience who is going to look out for them because now the neonate can be made into something valuable. By working in your Mentor's favor, the neonate gets rewarded with some starting capital to make some headway on their own desires. They're expected to pay this back with interest, but if the neonate's smart, they'll make more capital out of the loan than they're expected to pay back and they get to keep all of this and use it as they see fit. By the time this happens, they should be looking for more neonates they can pull into the Invictus fold so they can continue the tradition.

That's how the Invictus rolls. Pyramid schemes, everyone paying their dues up a step in the ladder. If you want a round table, the Carthains are your bag. The table the Invictus sit at always has a head and a very specific seating order.

[Wolven Pryde]

Lol, and then he ruins it...

[Chrisie]

Things are suddenly moving very quickly on this and I wanted to do a scene IC with Zach and WP about the business ideas. Court and rl deflected me on this a little.

The first thing I''d say is that it might be worth recalling that IC Martha has tried to manage expectations about this business plan and asked Zach to come up with a functioning Plan B and various proposals as she felt his Plan A to be super-ambitious and won't be achieved overnight - primarily as it sits very much in the backyard of the Prince's Rack.

The second thing is that OOC I'm impressed by the energy of the scheme and I'm also trying to match that with behind the scenes OOC energy of my own to help pick up on the Business ideas later (the PDFs and paperwork Martha and Dillon are whispering about in the opening post of recent Requiem/Avalon scenes is a deliberate hint at this!)

Dashing ahead with the schemes IC is cool. But dashing too far ahead of the field without checking to look back to see where the rest of the team is might lead everyone to go: grrr.

OOC I had some ideas about where the thing might go. As an ST I was hoping to try to keep a fairly realistic appreciation of how someone would set up major planning initiative in one of the States major cities. It could be an interesting vehicle for IC and maybe even allow various plots to intersect with it. I'm not saying plots could, but there should be a chance for us to ponder the option. My own thoughts were that expecting this to be resolved in a couple of months isn't where I'd planned on anything going either IC or OOC. It could be the seed for lots of very interesting IC threads, etc that could be squandered if rushed and needed work on.

Sadly I hadn't really had much a chance to formulate my thinking about much of this or even talk in full and share my thoughts with the rest of ST team before this thread popped up.

Luckily I've now had a chance to air some of my thoughts on this and I hope we can approach this endeavour with a greater appreciation of where we might all be so we are all, as they used to say in the 1990's 'on the same page' on this.

[AlphaStrike]

Wow, this seems to be really popular. I am glad for all the interest, and I will try to respond to all of you in the order of posting.

Jag

Several points.

First, I didn't want to go to the ST's first thing for the same reason that Zach didn't run up to the Prince with his idea: because the first rough draft is always shit. It wasn't a good idea four months ago. I was roleplaying Zach, and he said that he wanted a castle on a skyscraper. That was it. That was the entirety of the plan. If I went up to the ST's and said, "Can I have a castle on a skyscraper?", they would have said no. Because, let's face it, that sounds dumb. Breach of the masquerade, where do you get the castle, etc, etc. Now that I have been refining and improving the idea for several months, it sounds a lot better, fits with the world better, is of more benefit to more players, and many other things. I figure that this rate of improvement will continue, and in a few more months, the idea will be further refined, and will be presentable by then. What I have now I'm not satisfied with, and have no reason to present it.

Short version: I haven't got a decent idea to present to the ST's yet.

Second, the Prince is the least free Kindred in a Domain. He can't just do as he wishes. All Invictus are bound by tradition, the Prince most tightly. The only reason that any Invictus support a Prince is because he does what a Prince is supposed to, which things are clearly laid out by siad traditions. If Prince Clarke started to act un-Princely, the Invictus would be the first to jump on his face. If an opportunity comes along that would bring benefit to the Kindred in a Domain, the Prince has to have a hell of a reason for not taking it. In the current situation, all the Prince would have to do is say "I am now the Chairman of the Corporation" and it would be his. Zach (and anyone else that becomes involved) can't say no, but neither can the Prince. Even a Prince can't fight an entire domain.

Short version: The Prince has to consider an idea on it's merits, not on his own whims.


West

It's perfectly realistic to segregate professional and personal lives. It happens every day, for millions of people.


Benji

I see your point. Thanks for putting that so plainly. I will be sure to speak to the ST's directly about this, as well as roleplaying it.


Lokio

Oh. Well, that actually makes a lot of sense. I certainly didn't mean to trample on other people's ideas, and I really like the way these forums have been put together. My questions and concerns posted in the Tech Support thread have been taken care of immediately, the ST's I worked with during character creation were very helpful, and people here are pretty awesome about dealing with the limits of play by post. I will certainly work on being more courteous. And, as above, I will speak to the ST's directly about this.

Thanks for the awesome post, BTW.


Benji (Part 2)

Okay, that was well said. I was hoping I could dance the fine line between being Invictus IC while still being excellent to the other players OOC. The solution seemed to be "Allow everyone to participate in the project if they wish". Since Zach would be low man on the totem pole, I thought he could simply defer to his elders (which would be everyone, or as close to everyone that letting a few of his juniors in on it wouldn't really matter all that much) Since the project would be large enough in scope, Zach would have to defer to somebody. Zach is also trying to prove he has the drive and energy to see a project through, a valuable tool in any client-patron relationship that Zach will enter into in the coming nights. Also, I thought I could play a little wilder of a character, since Zach is both new and young, and has been relatively free with his Requiem from being a wanderer. This means that certain mistakes will be more tolerated than others (like trying to benefit too many people at once). Zach is looking to get some elders to say "This boy has energy, but he needs proper molding if he is to be useful", and hopefully draw his elder's attention (although that can backfire if pursued in the wrong way).

Is my approach okay, or is there another way that I could this thing that would be better?


Lokio Part 2

Loooool I AM BATMAN

Hey, in my book you are. Been tons of helpful, and you've punched enough bad ideas in the face to earn my Batman Award.


Chrisie

My thoughts are pretty much these: thank you, Chrisie.

I don't think I've said thank you enough for the help, both IC and OOC, that you have given me. All the way back to Zach's origin, you've been something of a stable house in a hurricane. Thank you.

I can sympathize with the RL stuff bogging you down. Baby girl, finals, graduation, moving, job hunting, and the slow, arduous process of unpacking have been eating up my time lately. When Wibbly and I wrap up part 1, our little meeting, I will check with you and Wolven and see if you both are ready for the mini-tour/idea explanation.

[Jag]

I think the word you were looking for is unpopular.

I was gonna craft a response to this, but then I realized I'm wasting my time...you still don't get the point.