Teaching Covenant Secrets

[West]

I'd like to take a poll on this -- it's come up in chat before and people seem pretty split on it.

Core states Theban and Cruac are technically Disciplines, and the Theban section refers to non-Cov members using it. The OD book refers to teachign Coils.

What I'm considering is making them teachable (since the *only* rationale that they aren't is the Status requirement). However, the teacher can only teach up to their level -1. So a Theban 3 Sorcerer could teach 1 & 2.

* This will make Cov-hopping to collect things to teach difficult
* This will increase the danger for the teacher (as they will have a higher Status and therefore more to lose)
* This will keep top tier effects reserved for Covenant elite only

So, please, consider this, vote, and/or express opinions.

[Mykel]

Yes, someone please start teaching Coils outside the Cov. Max needs some more Dragon Status. Err, after I get his combat skills up a little, though. >_>


In all serious, I don't think it would be a good idea. The special abilities are part of what give each Cov their "flavor", and I don't see the Covs being too happy about their secrets getting out. When the ST's have spent so much effort deterring "cherry picking" of skills, I think it would be a step backwards in that regard.

[Kelreth]

I'm kind of for this idea because of the way it has been stated in books as West described. At the same time, I'm only ok with it as long as people don't go crazy spilling secrets all over the place. Because that isn't cool and would detract somewhat from the game, to me at least.

Would the "only be able to teach discipline X-1" apply to each specific Coil?

So overall for now I'm going to go with neutral. I can see where the idea comes from, I've thought about it myself a bit before. At the same time I'm not sure how well it would play out in a game like this one.

Especially that nasty business of sun tanning anyone who learns other Cov secrets and the teacher....

[skarecrow36]

I think my only reservations to this is the fact that the ramifications of an outsider learning these secrets only kick in one it's learned by those within the covenant. This would be fine if it was something to follow up on but given the fact that real life, or being stuck in a different thread for players may prevent them from finding out quicker and thus carrying out a punishment to those who are guilty. For this it almost feels like the benefits out weigh the negatives. Maybe if there was a primacy type roll involving investigation by covenant members and if there's a certain number of successes would rate how much they know whether or not something's up (i.e. if the person learning the discipline fails to roll a higher amount of successes, maybe it means they let slip using the discipline in front of someone who told a covenant member etc etc).

Just an idea to better act out the serious penalty involved in spilling what is guarded secrets.

[Kelreth]

How would someone notice that a person was using a Coil unless they observe them doing something blatantly not normal?

I mean whats the difference between Coils of Bane and having high willpower when it comes to someone shoving a torch in your face.

[West]

well it's all up to enforcement. liek if the Ventrue Priscus deemed Dominate was for Ventrue only. For example, do you want to apply the 'investigation' rolls ot Charlie teaching Max Protean? Because some Gangrel may not agree with that.

Kel: IIRC there are Devotions for testing Coil knowledge. But, yeah, Coils and even a lot of Sorcery would be hard to detect.

[skarecrow36]

I wouldn't want that to happen to Charlie but I think if he was found out the penalties for him may not be as grave or heavy as opposed to Heathcliff taught Dirge a Theban ritual. But in hindsight I do see where you're coming from too and really a lot of that can be handled IC rather than just mechanically going to the dice roller like I originally suggested. initially I think i assumed the idea of approaching a more elite covenant member to learn a higher level of ritual seemed too easy, ignoring the idea that boons or something more would be asked for in return for suh a risk.

[West]

Oh it should be a huge risk for the teacher; IIRC it's equated to a Blood or Life Boon -- no small thing at all.

[Mykel]

I don't think the Clan stuff would carry the same weight as Cov stuff. You can learn Obfuscate, Protean, ect with enough practice. For the Cov stuff, you HAVE to have a teacher. It's the difference between learning how to build a nuke yourself, and bribing one of the boys from SAC how to do it, complete with all the little fiddly bits.

[West]

You can learn Obfuscate, Protean, ect with enough practice.

VtR, p.231

This goes double for Disciplines other than Celerity, Resilience and Vigor. Learning a new Discipline means forcing the power of the Blood to manifest in new ways that the character has never felt and can hardly imagine. No mortal can possibly help a character, either. The vampire absolutely must find another Kindred willing to teach her how the Discipline works.