Sacramento speakers series: February

[Chambers]

Sips his drink. 'Only in so much as it would help me understand your position. If neither fit that's fine.' Better even. 'Well that raises the question what reflects the idea of empathic civilised behaviour more, public or private health care?' The NHS is something you don't appreciate until you no longer have it. 'Does it? The idea of caring for the weakest runs contrary to the idea of the strong rule, does it not? We've touched on the idea of the strong determine value, set precedent and rule that leads to development and monopolies.' I think that's a fair outline of what we've expanded into. 'But if caring for the sick, the injured those lower down is the mark of civilisation then most systems in place could not be called civilised.' Essentially this is altruism vs egoism.

A hand goes up to interject, then goes down. 'I see your point.' So how do you force, encourage or foster a sense of nationalism of patriotism in those who don't have or value it? 'And as you said if left to their own devices it becomes more likely for dangerous elements to rise, but supporting certain factions ostracises them from others creating a spark point for further conflict.' Tricky. 'The only alternative I can think to offer is humanitarian aid. Don't politically meddle directly but offer points those who are displaced or in need can go for shelter or food. Win hearts and minds kind of stuff.' Would that work? Unlikely. 'The Chinese seem to have sights set elsewhere at the moment.' On things a little closer to home it would seem.

He nods. 'Now the cartel approach as you put it seems to be where the problem lies.' For those who support this structure anyhow. 'And another hard problem to offer a solution to, because unfortunately, I think it is very much already the case.' As do most I would wager.

[Helen Kingsley]

"I don't really make that difference." She concedes. "Public. Private is more effective, but also comes with a price tag. Money you need, folks you need to know, stuff like that. Public is not as good, but it aims to work against the worst stuffs at the bottom of society and should be open to everybody. Whether it is, is the question, but going by the idea, I think that works."

Helen ponders the interjection.

"Depends. Motive is key here, I think. Cheap labor, customers, power base. As long as the strong see a value in keeping the weak around, they do. Like the idea that people look after those less fortunate than them not because of they can still be useful for something, but because it#s the right thing to do, it's an ideal. In practice, those sides have become pretty muddled up and I don't think you could seperate them that cleanly."

She frowns. Again.

"That'd assume you can keep humanitarian aid free from being political. But as soon as you got the folks hooked enough, you'll notice you got a pretty long and strong stick you can use as political leverage. As soon as you get engaged with aid enough, the aid becomes political. I mean, look what happened when the guys decided yes, we still would like NGOs helping our folks, but we don't want them to send any women to do it. Yeah, whatever you reply, its politics now.

Indeed. There's this fun thing Europeans like to say. Something really bad has to happen before folks will consider changing their ways. Apparently, things ain't bad enough yet."

[Chambers]

'A succinct summary, and nothing I plan to contest.' Now what else? 'So education as a base line, public health care. How then should a benefits system be run, if at all? After all not everyone is fit to work, and many will require time off, What do we reckon is a sufficient level of state intervention for those in need, to be determined civilised?' This is getting rather interesting.

He muses on that. 'So to say those least fortunate are helped because its the right thing, in the determination that right thing to do is get the most use out of the less fortunate.' A perverse twist on the ethical stance, but yes in practice very much the case. 'Maybe happens then a sanction if certain thresholds or standards are not met, maintained or enforced?' No that won't work. 'But that would require a governing body with enough integrity to hold itself to account. Hardly a good look on election day.' Another nasty twist voting focus on the win not the responsibility.

He smiles lightly to her frown. 'I never said or intended for it not to be political. The question was how to peacefully stabilise an area when nukes and open support are off the table. My suggestion was to hold lifeline aid, or services to which they have become reliant and accustom as bargaining chips. And make sure the populace know what they need to do to get them back. Know who is blame for their withdrawal.' And this is why I should never be allowed to get into politics. 'But Promoting the people to work towards installing leadership that will work to retain or maintain the aid or service so the people benefit, brings us back to the issues of dependency and then monopiles again doesn't it.' Well if this could be solved in an evening I would have to hope it would have been.

He actually laughs a little. 'I wish I could contest that but I can't.' The apathy of his fellow Europeans was something of a problem. 'With the exception of maybe France it does take a lot to stir most countries in Europe to definitive action.' Is the lie stronger in some parts of the world then other or is bias clouding my judgment on this? 'So I guess the question is how bad is it going to have to get?' Trick question, the worse it gets the less likely something is to happen.

[Helen Kingsley]

"From each according to abilities, to each according to need. Yeah, that's Marx. No, I'm not a big fan of communism. But unless you want to go the spartan way and throw the folks unable to contribute fully down a cliff as litewral or figurative as you like at some point, that's kind of the approach to take, I think. All depends on how to utilize people and if you want to after a certain point, really."

She nods along with his argument.

"That's the problem."

"Yeah, no, it doesn't work like that. See how much the humanitarian aid in Gaza is taken for granted and who is attacked for being the monster threatening all those poor people with starvation and whatnot." Helen scoffs. "Problem is, you're dependent on people and do the works to make sure your folks get things, you're a collaborator and once the folks who don't like feeling thike a colony get loud and numerous enough ? They'll come after you. And your folks. And maybe try to get more self-sufficient, and we all know how that has worked out for people in the last few decades.

Yah, that's the question everybody asks and where it's best not to have to find out the answer any time soon."

[Chambers]

That swung around quickly. 'Now communism is actually sensible on paper, just apparently as good as impossible to do in actuality. There is also a more egalitarian approach. Provide a basic level capable of sustaining life. But it is not glamorous, encouraging those who want more to work for it.' But then we reach the potential for monopolies again. 'With some degree of hard cap to encourage use or spending and prevent hoarding.' Now it's just a dictatorship. 'In theory that would cover health care, education and basic needs for life while still offering stimulation and thus investment in the system.' He takes a pause actually eager to hear her thoughts on this approach. You would need some kind of order or control of course, would a Consilium structure work on a larger scale.

He frowns. 'I can see what your trying for but Gaza is an active war zone not a reconstruction or civilisation effort yet.' Which to his mind constituted very different circumstances. 'And that would be the key time to remove yourself and tell the populace why, who is the cause and a list of criteria to get their aid or services back, give them a reason to oust the rabble rouses and malcontents seemingly of their own mind.' A house divided kind of situation. 'I'm thinking social manipulation on a massive scale.' Not a speciality of mine by any means so I might well be missing something.

He nods. 'Agreed.' No more need be said. And sips his drink.

[Helen Kingsley]

"A friend of mine used to say, communism can kinda work with up to 200 people, it will crash and burn hard above that number. Me, I think he's been pretty generous with that estimate, but I'll take it for illustrative purposes.

That'd be great, but still, even that basic level has to come from something. Unless you automate hard, there's no getting out of working. That hard cap, though ? Needs to be enforced and who knows if that's a good idea in the first place, it might help kill any sort of willingness to go above whats necessary. Or support spending money on some weird stuff just to get rid of it. Unless the hard cap expands to investments and stuff that helps make making money easier ? The more money you make the more you have to spend on silly stuff. Why bother in the first place ?"

Nice turn back to feudalism, that. Keep people happy, kill some incentives to innovate. Been there, done that, and didn't even get the t-shirt.

"Point taken, although I doubt it'll be any of those any time soon. Question is if that'd work or if people would rally support from outside the borders to defend themselves against that evil blackmail against the helpless and innocent. Not that it matters, if you're willing to brave some bad press, you might be able to pull it off, but things turn bad, there'll be hell to pay. If I'm a pessimist, I'd say people have gotten too used to live in peace or at least in a place that's been pretty far from the actual going-ons. Ain't no such thing as a clean war, as much as folks would like that."

[Chambers]

Mulling over the points raised, the issues that would need to be overcome. Beyond the very obvious one of none of it mattering, its all a lie. But before he can continue the call goes out the venue is closes for the night.

Still it was a good conversation and he looks satisfied by it. Offering an appreciative smile. 'Well Thank you for the debate, I've quite enjoyed this.' More so then the lecture I would say. 'I hope to see you at a few more of these.'

And then allows himself be shepherded out by the users wanting to close up.

We've hit 30 days, Thank you for that, it was great fun