(2404) Consilium

[Corn]

Apologies for the faux pas. I didn't intent to dictate the way of thinking of another player's character.

"The thing with Circle's defenses is that we have been given somewhat conflicting information. Winter told us the previous time that the Servants of the Lie cannot perceive the Circle, same as the sleepers can't - something that many of us have heard in the past but was not tested while I was here. Winter also suggested that I take a look at the artifact to understand what it does. Which would settle such questions if not for the problem that I am not knowledgeable in the sphere of Prime at all. Other times, we have been told, that the circle protects from sleepers and any mage can see it.
Seers are sworn enemies - not just mages with ill intent - so perhaps some magic of the circle can capture their allegiance to the Exarchs and their desire to enforce the Lie. But perhaps it does not. And Banishers? Can the Circle tell a Banisher from any other Apostate? I don't know.
What I do know, is that Apostates can certainly come here. We have seen that when some non-affiliated mages came to Sacramento. "

To Aurora he answers about Zero. "He was carrying the anchor of a ghost and he announced it in a public meeting. I think it was a monthly meeting but it could have been a meeting of the Moros. We were not alone when he said it and he didn't mention any need for secrecy. " that I recall... he thought to himself, not sure if Zero had asked him and the others present to keep it a secret although he couldn't see the reason. "I am not sure I would call it his personal ghost; it was a ghost. He never claimed ownership of her, that I recall. "

To Philip he says with a smile "For things that I can do, I could suggest automatons. Or well, a single automaton. A boosted, animated mannequin with the intelligence of a guard dog. Self-repairing. They can be very powerful. I have another idea of how to make such an automaton even more useful against invading mages, based on a discussion I had with Campanella 3 years ago, but I need to think more and prepare more with that one. If you want, I can give you more details.
Others could do different things; A disciple of Spirit could reach to the other side of the Gauntlet and make a deal with the spirits there to alarm us if someone sends spirits to spy on us from the Shadow. Things like that. "

To Chambers when he sees his reaction to the 'fuck with our timeline' comment, Corn says "The time war mentioned in the previous gathering, is something those that lived through it asked us to refrain from asking of. If you want, I could tell you what I was told another time."

[Philip Crosen]

Philip frowned. It seemed, it was 3v2. Aurora and Winter seemed to be against, or at least not as enthusiastic about the idea of reinforcing the Circle as he, Corn and Chambers seemed to be. And Chambers and Corn it seemed had started a debate with Winter over who could actually access the Circle and who couldn`t, and what should be done about it. Philip listened with rapt attention not really knowing which way that debate would go, but feeling it disrespectful to interrupt them. It was curious. But Chambers` words were wise, and got him a nod, although he tried as best he could to not align him to a side of the debate. After a while, though, he turned his attention to Corn who answered his questions with a smile, setting Philip`s mind at ease.

"An automaton? Sounds interesting. Whatever gives us that tiny extra edge, I`d say, makes us ever-more ready. Color me intrigued so yes, more details please. And perhaps I can help, too?"

That part about details being a slight jest, giving Corn a slight chuckle when Philip had to spell out that he wanted all the deets, if it wasn`t already obvious from his Order affiliation and earlier comment. Hopefully he`d understand it for the light hearted comment it was. he thought, slightly unsure. It was of course not his intention to discourage his admirable impulse after all.
The details about the Mage Zeromancer were quite intriguing. As was the suggestion of making deals with spirits to warn them and the bringing of haunted items into the Circle. This gave another potential avenue of and for infiltrators, this time from the Ephemeral arena after all. Philip gave Aurora, the resident Thyrsus, a questioning look on the subject of making deals with them. But most importantly, the info about Zeromancer and haunted items represented another case where Corn apparently said something he should have kept to himself, judging from Aurora`s reaction, much to Philip`s shock, with Corn being called out for breaches of confidence as clearly and publicly as he had been. The Time Wars thing was also something he desperately wanted more info on too and from this latest situation, it seemed more and more that Corn was happy enough to share just about everything he knew. Just let`s not discuss the Time Wars in the company of Aurora and the omni-present getting-turned-into-sushi threat. he thought, nodding eagerly at Corn`s offer, regardless if it was directed towards Chambers exclusively or not. After all, if he could get free info out of him, the more the better.
Aurora`s comment on his acknowledgement process and reasoning was duly noted with an understanding smile. It seems she did understand me, after all. But eventually he broke his silence and reaffirmed his belief that they should set up additional defenses. Again, if it wasn`t already obvious from his earlier comments.
"And that`s what I`ve been saying. Of course you can never have a one hundred percent perfect system. But I agree with Chambers and Corn here in that I think we should still look for improvements wherever we can find them."

[ReubanBrightwood]

Well that's been 96 hours. Winter Leaves the Scene. Orianna Aurora your up

[Aurora]

“If, in fact, they decide to be thorn in our side and not move on, they are not granted the protection of the Lex. It’s quite simple and I’m not sure we have to hash it out. I have never seen it happen, never seen someone come and be denied acknowledgement, so I highly doubt it’s going to start being a concern.” But she supposes it’s good to have things in place.

The Shaman catches the look, and returns one that simply states she was serious in what she said. Was she going to get into it now? No. Those who survived that whole mess were few and far between these days, either moving on, or simply not saying anything.

“So because something was not tested, it’s not true? Like what test do you expect, some of us to go out, find some Seer’s and whatnot and ask them to try and fuck with the Circle?” come on. “Sleepers see it for what it is to them, a Church, while Awakened see it as more magnificent Church with magic properties. The Awakened Eye sees the world for what it truly is, and that applies to the Circle.” This was basics.

Sighing, “This has been hashed out in the past, and been denied in the past for some pretty obvious reasons. Sure, they can be powerful, in the right hands. What happens when a Seer or Banisher turns that against you?” the Circle didn’t need this bullshit. “There are reasons the Circles defenses have been left as is for years upon years. They work, they always have.” And she, for one, was not about to make deals with Spirits and Ghosts. “Those across the Gauntlet follow their own rules, and while it can be forced, it is not recommended and not something I recommend messing with.” Count this Spirit Master out of controlling Spirits.

Chuckling, “Always be careful with second hand knowledge.” Both to Corn and Chambers. She would be willing to talk with Chambers in private about it, she was beginning to trust him.

[Chambers]

He nods in agreement with Aurora. ''Agreed.'' Play ball or steer clear. Make problems and be dealt with. That's how consilium's around the world handled it.

Winters choice to walk out rather then continue the discussion was unexpected and the Moros watches him leave. That's a problem of another day. ''Now when it comes to the Seers, Banishers and all that I think some assumptions can be made. If they even know where we are they don't care.'' A lofty statement. ''When I arrived I brought the numbers up to four, Philip I believe you brought them up to three, before me.'' A revised version of a theory he had been told was wrong. ''If they know we are here they would monitor who comes and goes and realise or weakened position. Follow us home, attack us in the street, pick us off.'' And clearly. ''Not give us the time to grow our numbers, our strength back up.'' Nothing else made sense. ''They could wipe us out and install a pylon here to recruit or kill mages as they arrived one by one over the months.'' That still didn't explain the order door but. ''I feel secure in saying something is keeping them from our door and the most likely thing is lack of information.'' We are sitting in a replica of Westminster abbey for goodness sake. if they could see this they would be all over it.

To Corn. ''While the idea of creating magical automations is very appealing.'' And it was. ''Maybe that's a side project because it has the same flaw as the camera.'' More or less. ''It can be turned against us.'' He raises a hand to stop a rebuttal. ''I am not saying your magic is weak. I am saying we can't have it just attack any mage that walks in and we have no one here at night. What's to stop someone walking in and ritually reprograming, controlling or dismissing it?'' I'm sounding more like an arrow then I would like right now. ''Our best defence is vigilance to keep our awareness up, keep an eye on changes of resonance.'' The circle is clearly warded against things interfering with it, that gives us something we can concretely observe. ''It is not flashy or grand and requires a little investment from us but it really is the most steadfast way we can take ownership of our safety.'' Which you know we should.

[Corn]

Aurora 's answer puzzled him, as it seemed a contradiction to her earlier replies. "Aurora, I am not sure what you mean." he says calmly trying to clarify what he is asking, "I didn't mean that what we have heard, that the Servants of the Lie cannot perceive the Circle, is either right or wrong nor I think that if we can't test a theory, it makes the theory false. What I said is that I don't know, that there is conflicting information. You said that it is not invisible to Seers and banishers, others have suggested it is. I do not have the right arcana to check but others do. Perhaps to their eyes, it could be possible."

The automaton suggestion is not received very well. Not very badly either though. At least, it is being discussed.
"Aurora and Chambers , I can assure you taking control of an automaton I can create with a ritual would require an entire cabal. It is much harder to beat a spell that potent from taking control of cameras. To dispel or overcome magic we could do with a ritual and determination, is by no means an easy feat.
Now, Chambers, you mention that someone could walk in and reprogram the automaton with a lengthy ritual.
I have thought of that and I can answer you what can stop such a thing from happening. For one, the enemy should know that there is such a defense here. Else they will have to retreat and prepare to do that.
Second, such a ritual would take a lot of time. While we can't have the automaton attack any mage that enters, we can train it to try to evict any mage that it doesn't recognize and that is not accompanied by some of us. Those automatons are about as smart as dogs. It is entirely possible to train a dog to not attack the milkman and the delivery lads but to be aggressive towards intruders.
Third, with some help, Atlantean runes and high speech, we can make that Automaton so hard to be taken under control that a single mage's ritual would be doomed to fail.

Lastly... " he said with smile slowly forming in his face. His voice is tinted with passion.
" ... there is a solution based on something I want to try, anyway. I have discussed something on that vein briefly with a mage called Campanella, years ago. The solution is expensive but doable. Simply put, Chambers and Philip , the way to stop even a cabal of enemies from showing up and do a lengthy ritual to take over the Automaton is ... Thaumium. You make the construct out of a hollow Thaumium shell. You don't even need that much Thaumium to do it, cause its properties and endurance are based on the magic and not the thickness of the Thaumium cell. How many mages could reach the required power when their ritual is constantly countered by the Thaumium?
I plan to eventually make Thaumium when I unlock its secrets. I could make a ring for myself or do something for the Circle's defenses with it, once I have it."
Corn shakes his head to clear the dreams and future plans and ambitions and return to the matter at hand. "But even before the extreme solution for the one in the thousand issue I mentioned, an automaton made by a ritual from several of us, is very hard to take over, even with a ritual from our enemies."

[Philip Crosen]

"What happened?"
he asked as Winter suddenly left the discussion, leaving Philip with his mouth agape for several seconds, before recomposing himself and adressing the important, and apparently divisive subject matter they were currently discussing.
"So anyway, I agree with Corn on this one. A well-designed automaton is gonna be much harder to influence than a mundane camera system if we`re careful and set it up properly to defeat countermeasures like Corn suggested. Like your Thaumium idea in combination with a group ritual. I`d expect nothing less than this defense being expensive anyway. Both in time and materials. And I`d contribute to covering the cost in any way I can. But if this cannot be done now, I`d be OK to table it if we revisit it later."
Of course, that was only if it could not done at the time. If it could be done, he was all for it. And that was despite being greedy. After all, his survival instinct was strong also, and he was still not quite sure around Aurora. Such an automaton keeping everyone honest might even the odds. he thought.
"And besides, it`s a last line of defense anyway, meaning it should only come into play if all the strong and previously-existing defenses of the Circle get breached. So to expect a Seer or Banisher to just come in here and be able to set up elaborate rituals to get it over to its` side? Theoretically anything`s possible, I guess. No system is perfect, but I don`t see that happening if we set it up to cover as many of its` weaknesses as possible and to work in conjunction with the existing defenses. So if it does get hacked, that means a lot more has gone wrong than `just` the automaton itself."
He then turned to Chambers.
"As for the whys and why-nots of why Seers didn`t pick us off when we were at our weakest? To me, that theoretical discussion is only useful insofar as that it shows it hasn`t happened yet. I prefer not to speculate on the reason."
he said, leaving it open whether he was being prophetic or not, but not putting any metaphysical weight behind it to prove or disprove this theory, before turning to Aurora.
"And, of course we don`t need to get some Seers to attack us to prove the strength of our defenses?! What?"
he asked, looking around to the three of them confused, almost expecting them to tell him he`d misunderstood them. To him, that came with all sorts of unnecessary risks.
"But if we assume this situation of them not caring, as you put it, continues, just for the sake of argument. Then to me it further reduces the risk of the automaton being hacked, and thus increases its` up-side. Because if it then got hacked anyway, I`d say it be far more likely one of us did it. I`d even argue this last active line of defense reduces the risk of mundane intrusions and doors being broken into, because of the Matter properties that went into its` construction."
he said, clearly referencing the break-in and lock removal in the Mysterium wing. He also didn`t expressly state that the automaton would keep the Consilium members honest towards each other too. After all, Philip did not want to be turned into a fish, and having a neutral automaton prevent clashes and disputes might be the way to go, as far as he was concerned.
But he then turned to Aurora, nodding in understanding when she talked about her refusal to make deals with spirits and ghosts.
"As for ephemeral entities. Ok, well, you`d know the rules these beings abide by better than me. So if you say that shouldn`t be messed with, I`d say that settles that."
he said, looking questioningly to the others to ask whether her opinion had resolved the idea with spirits and ghosts. Because to him, it had.

[Aurora]

Was she a bit pissed that Winter walked out? Yes, but she was also concerned, as it wasn’t like him.

To say she was tired of the talk about the security of the Circe was an understatement. The Circe was secure, it always had been.

“What I can tell you Corn, is that in all my years here, more than even Winter, there has never been a direct attack to the Circle, to the building. There has been fights outside it, but nothing in here. Whoever built this, built it with safety for the community in mind, and whatever those protections are, have held and protected us for longer than I’ve been here.”

He had discussed this damn robot before, and got shot down before. “Tell me Corn, do you think the powers that found a way to fuck with the time line of the mages of this place would find it difficult to hack your robot? Cause I have to think they would find it quite simple and we would find ourselves with more that just the threat of Seers and Banishers.” Why was this so difficult? “Where is the evidence of what you say? That a single mage cannot take control of it? Because I’m placing my bet on the protections built into this building.” Not a damn robot.

Then it sounded like Philip was on board with this. And she simply shakes her head, “I will always support what Chambers has said, our best defense is vigilance and being aware of what is around us.” So no, she wasn’t on board. Not now, not ever.

She then offers a shrug, “Clearly you want to think I was being one hundred percent serious. Come on, really. Look, you guys are the ones doubting the protections that have been here before any of us. Personally, I trust the protections of the Circle.” And she would not be fucking with them. That was that for her. She was done discussing it. If they wanted to waste their time, she’d let them, she had languages to learn and Tomes to find.

Leaning back in her seat, she takes a sip of her drink, “But you guys do you.” They had more pressing matters.

[Chambers]

Okay our first serious sticking point is over ... a hypothetical robot... did not see that coming. He keeps cool calm and level headed. Careful on the phrasing. Tone smooth and unconfrontational ''Gentlemen.'' Addressing both Corn and Philip. ''If this robot is a last line of defence after the.'' Nodding to Aurora. ''To date impenetrable defences have been breached I don't think grabbing control of the robot will be all that hard.'' If they can break this place they can break you or anything you've made.

Egos aside for just a moment. ''Secondly anything a single mage can do, is fair to assume another single mage can undo or mess with never mind two or three or a cabal working in unison.'' Because Corn is just one mage. ''The idea of a group ritual is grand and would add serious might to the will working however ... who do you plan to be working with? I lack the knowledge to help you.'' In case his fellow Moros had been counting on his help it was not something Chambers could give if he wanted to.

And that just sounds like its asking for trouble. ''We can't tie it into defences we don't fully understand never mind can't scrutinise to even try. That should tell you enough about the level of power we are already protected by.'' And I feel better with working then it not because someone messed with it.

This gets a sharper look for a moment before he stifles it. It sounded like they just proposed murdering random strangers. ''Finally we can't just have it attack anyone who comes in that's not, or not with, one of us. Aside from these official meetings mages can wonder in at any hour of the night or day looking for someone to make contact with.'' Best case scenario. ''I don't want to walk in one morning and find a body of who could have been an ally if the robot hadn't murdered them before I arrived.'' Why trust to it what we can do ourselves? only better with more wisdom.

No this plan was to poorly thought out for him. To many holes, to much room to go very wrong. ''I can't support this.'' It has act of hubris written all over it.

Shame we don't have some to make a ruling decision really. But that brings us nicely to. ''So with that having reached a deadlock shall we move onto item three?'' No sense going on endlessly now is there.

[Corn]

To Aurora Corn replied simply "that it would take said mage several hours. If the problem is that an enemy mage can walk in here and spend several hours slowly taking over an automaton, then what is to stop said enemy from walking in and spending several hours on a ritual to create such a trap for us in the first place? "

But then, Chambers brings up some points he doesn't necessarily agree with and a very good point. "Oh. Ohh. I see what you mean. I don't agree with everything but yes, I wouldn't want to find a dead body of someone that walked in to get acknowledged. Guard dogs are not set loose in the building.
Let's table this discussion for the moment - I plan to revisit the issue once I have a better answer for you Chambers - but it seems you pushed out of deadlock to a "not yet any changes to the defenses, trust in them" territory. Philip , Chambers is right. The accidental attack of an innocent is a danger."
As much as I want a nice big automaton as in the movies, I will have to do with toys, not actual weapons. Oh, wait, perhaps...

"Before we move to the next thing, could I make just a quick suggestion: If anyone wants to practice fighting... they could fight the automatons, safely. The Automatons would be using cushioned batons under my control and the Automatons go revert back to being dolls the moment you want. You can go all out against them, burn them, shoot them, whatever in order to practice. I will repair the mannequins afterwards.
I suggest this, because in the past the way to train us and prepare us by some Arrows was to actually fight us and then heal us when we were so beaten up that we would need hospital care.
Another possibility for training, if you care for guns, is the paintball guns I have bought. I can lend them out to mages that want to train in guns or to respond in guns. I don't even have to be there. And yes, I know you can simply go and play paintball. But then you would be surrounded by sleepers and it wouldn't be the same. "
Corn makes a small pause. "Not that paintball wouldn't be fun, training and preparing for attacks aside."
"Those are offers you can take or refuse in your pursuit to practice fighting. If anyone wants to discuss them - or play paintball - I would be interested, schedule permitting." And if they don't take him up on his offer to play paintball, his brother would. Not the same without being able to tweak the pistols but still fun.

He then checks the agenda. "I think it is time to speak about leadership. That's next in the agenda. Everyone cool if we continue?"
He looks around "It seems Winter is not coming back, at least not right now. I would like him to be part of this discussion but I would guess he had pressing issues. " But I hope he is just taking a phonecall.
"We are few right now, but our numbers fluctuate. Mages may return or new ones may arrive. I think a system of leadership may not be necessary right now, but it could be in the future. Without proposing radical changes, we could possibly, if the consilium rules so, return to the system of the path councilors; once a path has three members they elect a councilor. "