A much needed talk

[Chambers]

So this is going about as I expected, behold debates as old as the free council, so not all that long in the grand scheme of things. 'As I said yes we all come from sleeping lives where lying is common, which is why we need principles and guidance on how and why to become better. We have a greater duty, awakened word holds more value because we speak truth, even without fate things tend to go poorly for those who break their word. Look to the iron laws for an example. But we can use sanctified oaths as part of the agreement if someone is worried about lying. That and the consequences of lying to the Mysterium about exchange are severe, so I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.' The chuckle that followed was meant to take tension out of the statement but doesn't quite succeed.

He's concerned as ever with the physical manifestation of the lie and not the truth behind it. 'The symbol might have more value but the truth that enables one to do so does not it simply is regardless of who what or where. This stops say a greedy mage extorting a village dying of thirst if they adhere the protocol. The point is to let truth flourish, carefully guarded rather than be trampled and ripped apart by all and any who would seek to exploit it for gain.' Yes mages will. but less likely so my order we understand true value better.

Chambers nods affirmatively here. 'Yes there is no obligation for any Mystagogue to step in and correct someone.' Is that a flaw? No. 'But they can as I am now, try and guide others to understand the importance and sanctity of truth. They might pose a riddle to indicate a new way of thinking. If its dangerous they might intervene more directly. They might let the errant mage find out for themselves and in doing so respect the lesson that has been learnt from the experience.' It all depends on the situation.

The moral grand standing ruffles him a little. 'Your point might have some merit if the free council didn't open its lore houses to the highest bidder.' We know more than you think, and this high horse does not sit well under you libertine. 'That is not trust its greed. It caters to selfish interest rather than building a history of good relationships through a carefully built structure.' Pretending otherwise fools no one.

Here Chambers pales notably. I really hope this is one of those we have misunderstood each other moments. 'The very idea of encouraging actions that strengthens the seers, the abyss, when we are already so few, so out matched frankly scares me, there is no pay off for it. None. And how could any mage trust a system that is knowingly unjust. This philosophy would tear any sense of community apart. If we become the Exarchs, for hoarding power is their agenda, it would be the end of reality.' I knew they could be radical but if this is what they discuss doing ... they might be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Chambers takes a moment to refocus, to get a better idea of his thoughts and tackle an easier point. Okay does he have selective hearing I feel I am just repeating myself on a few of these. 'I just said they should exchange them fairly, rote for rote of the same level. What use is a master rote to an apprentice or novice anyhow? they don't know how to use it.' This analogy doesn't normally go over well with those who love guns but I have no better. 'Its like giving a toddler a live grenade with the pin pulled, they might drop it at the feet of the enemy, they might blow themselves up, they might just hand it back to you because they don't know what they are doing. Its a fools game to risk and you lose more than you win.' Providing you value the toddler and want to see it grow of course.

Maybe I should have shifted here first he has actually got the jist it seems. 'And yes if you want to get into the minutia right exchange does not need to be so clear cut. Magical lore for rotes can and does happen but having a skilled curator on hand is a good idea to make sure its fair.'

A strong shake of the head. 'I cannot promise you that, so I'm afraid either we need to renegotiate the exchange or just accept it isn't happening.' That's something you only ask if you know its getting turned down or you want to try and put someone in a corner, this isn't my first rodeo.

Ending on a gentle shrug. 'Less information and more a trade of grievances but I approached it the same way, both getting equal chance to state our woes so neither party felt over shadowed.' And that worked out okay.

[Philip Crosen]

Philip was quite pleased the way the discussion was going. That was, until Chambers basically accused him of spreading Seer propaganda and rejected his baited attempt to find out more about his work. And, while he felt competition was a good thing, it seemed all Chambers liked was orderly bilateral deals, specifically to avoid competition. All told though, it was as he had expected, they weren`t going to see eye to eye on some things.

"As for oaths, that makes sense. And, remind me to never double-cross a Mystagogue, if you put it like that."

he said with a hearty, joking chuckle, while inwardly hoping Chambers also took that good-naturedly.

"But as you said, it seems we`re at an impasse with our ideas."

He then added, quite a bit more forcefully, and slightly annoyed.

"I was merely suggesting hypothetical alternatives to your system of Right Exchange. Like one based on competition or more free flow of information. But while your arguments against the competition idea were pretty good, actually, I definitely take issue with being accused of spreading Seer propaganda. Because that was not how that was supposed to come across. I tried to imagine an idea for a society united in communal competition on the fly. I was not intending for hoarding to be the result. It was a bad idea, so let`s just drop that."

He then changed his emphasis and went on to his second point.

"And as for the free flow of information idea, pretty much all I was trying to say there is I like the Free Council`s, and don`t like the Mysterium`s approach to information dissemination. I think our idea fosters trust, you think it fosters greed, but perhaps I was being too hasty. You do have a point though, we give our information very freely. Perhaps there`s a middle ground between our two approaches somewhere."

He then changed the emphasis again, after all Chambers had brought up sanctity, truth and the metaphysics of being Awakened. Philip didn`t want to have a long discussion about metaphysics, but he still felt he needed to add something to the thing Chambers had mentioned regarding double-cross and oath-binding. He was an enchanter, after all.

"But as far as sanctity and truth is concerned, besides the metaphysical truth magic and awakened knowledge itself represents that is, I agree that it`s important. But, yeah, I think it`s just very difficult to implement between mages short of the binding oaths you said, and the implicit threats of retribution you made. And that was good to know. I thought up until now you were just idealists, without anything to really back up your agreements. But I guess I should have known better, good for you."

he said with a short smirk. He also thought the water example was over. But again, he should have known better.

Here we go again, let`s just agree to disagree already.

he thought exasperatedly, on the topic of absolute vs subjective valuation of magical knowledge.

"And in the water example I wasn`t comparing a mage to a village, but I was comparing a visiting mage with the knowledge to a resident mage lacking water. But if you only trade information by absolute value, that example is irrelevant anyway. Though, how do you judge equality between magical lore for rote? Because as you said, it`s usually order info for order info and rote for rote, regardless of the other things the mages may know or be involved with."

He then had to balk at Chambers` analogy quite annoyedly. He was referring to an awakened mage as a `toddler` just because he wasn`t a master yet.

" And, you speak of perhaps even older mages as `toddlers wielding hand grenades`? So, just because they know less than masters, you equate them to toddlers. And the information contained in, for example say a generic advanced rote, you equate to hand grenades? Please explain that. I mean I get there`s symbolism there, but still, really? I mean, you`re getting me to imagine a toddler with a hand grenade and comparing him to you and me, as opposed to people more experienced than us? "

It was all he could say not to burst out at Chambers, either laughing or screaming. After all, Philip himself was equated to a toddler by Chambers` analogy. He then changed the subject again, this time to the conversation at large.

"As for this conversation as a whole, though. We both agreed to it. And we both individually took the right to say as much as we did while simultaneously allowing the other to say whatever they wanted. You didn`t by yourself allow the exchange though, we both implicitly agreed to it. And yeah, it seems any more exchanges regarding our awakened lives aren`t happening. I don`t want to renegotiate anything and I think I said all I need to regarding my opinion of your `Right Exchange` tenet."

I mean, I`d love to talk free time activites, if not job info with you, but if you`re going to be stingily sticking to your protocols, then you got me. I guess then you`re just no fun.

Philip was disappointed. He`d hoped Chambers would take his baited attempt to pretend to adhere to his `Right Exchange`, but he was moderately impressed he`d rejected it. All in all, he hadn`t intended the conversation to go where it had, but it was clear they had fundamentally different opinions on several issues. He was also anxious as to how he`d take his response to his accusation of Seer propaganda. Would he accept his reasoning, or somehow believe he was a Seer of all things, or some whacko? Why would he even suggest such a thing? Were they really so different they were always talking past each other? He still hoped the conversation could be salvaged, so they could talk about other things than shop. But as he was the one to bring up the `shop conversation` initially, after they were done with their initial disputes, he wasn`t hopeful.

Oh well, at least the biggest issues were settled. And I got a deeper dive into Mysterium motivations and Chambers personally, mostly for free. So I`d call it a win all in all.

[Chambers]

Slowly shaking his head, showing he wasn't ready to drop this point just yet. 'When I speak of opposing the seers and the abyss how else should I understand your response, about it being acceptable to create more bad apples?' I think I get it he speaks without thinking, like someone without a filter. 'I really doubt you do support the seers, but please bare in mind the context of a conversation, if the wrong person gets the wrong idea you can end up in really hot water.' Heed the advice or don't. I can say I tried.

Chambers crosses his arms. I think your focusing on the wrong part of the metaphor here. 'Toddlers, adolescents the metaphor carries the same principle. Give someone something they don't know how to use and its a massive risk. Especially if the thing you give them can tear paradoxes in reality, summon abyssal horrors or kill en mass. But lets suppose I'm wrong and a master gave you a rote of a master level spell, what would you do with that rote?' More experienced than us implies you are unlikely a master, and have made the same assumptions about me, so what would you do with a rote you can't cast?

This just gets a dismissive shrug. 'Judging lore for magical skills is difficult. I won't pretend to be very skilled at it, you'll notice I didn't introduce myself as a curator.' I have a long way to go before I can claim that honour.

His eyes narrow appraising Philip not sure what he actually wants right now. 'I offered to show you magic for magic, you didn't seem interested. You want me to swear to secrecy to talk of our jobs something I'm not willing to do. So unless you have another topic in mind? One you don't need total secrecy about.' Balls in your court, behold the power of a negotiation of right exchange.

[Philip Crosen]

So it seemed Chambers wasn`t ready to let it go.

Great, just what I need. Another problem, another discussion. And being accused of being a seer! The nerve of this guy, good grief! Yeah, no way I`m talking magic with him!

he thought, before trying to calm himself. Adopting a measured tone, he responded:

"I can see that, and I will bear it in mind. Context seems to be key in this conversation, because it seems we`re still misunderstanding each other. My point was that we should be prepared to accept some sacrifices in return for the greater good. Which should be strengthening the Pentacle against the Lie, by exchanging knowledge freely for the greater good of all. In my opinion, of course. I was trying to preempt what you said, by acknowledging that free flow of information does have some disadvantages. As you said, some mages are bound to not be ready and either succumb to greed or explode due to that `hand grenade` of information, as you then put it. The `bad eggs` was a colorful metaphor that apparently came out wrong. All of this is, of course, something I think we`ve already agreed to disagree about. So I see no reason to discuss this further."

He said dismissively, before scoffing slightly at Chambers` next comment. After all, weren`t only masters capable of making rotes in the first place? So, wouldn`t any new rote, even an apprentice-level one, be considered a `master-rote` regardless? It seemed Chambers was clearly referring to a rote for a master-level spell, that was also made by a master.

"Oh, I didn`t mean just randomly giving anyone a rote without telling them how to use it first. And I`d expect the pupil to have access to the level of arcane lore needed to improvise the spell before getting it. Knowledge not tied to the Arcana would have to be decided on case-by-case, but of course there should be some higher purpose to giving that knowledge away too. But regardless, it was my understanding that only masters were capable of inventing rotes of any level. Unless I`m mistaken? I know, I`ve never made any myself. I wouldn`t have any use for a rote if I can`t fathom the arcana involved. As for your question. If I personally got a master- level rote I`d be delighted, and I`d of course use it as soon as an opportunity presented itself, if I was told how to use it responsibly."

he said slyly. Technically, he didn`t confirm or deny if he was a master, that time. But Chambers could infer what he wished, regardless.

"As for your introduction, if `curator` is a Mysterium rank, then I`ve noticed that I don`t know your Mysterium rank at all. Unless I missed something, in which case, please forgive me. Meanwhile, I told you and the others my Free Council `rank`, if you can call it that, freely earlier. And on secrecy, I just feel like it isn`t fair if you can dictate terms to me by your `Right Exchange`, without me adding any myself. And I just don`t think it`s anyone`s business except our own, what we`re talking about. And before you say anything, no I`m not twisting the ideas of right exchange. But to me in the way you`ve explained it, it seems like a take- it- or- leave- it situation, which implies dictation. And your right to not share whatever isn`t covered in an agreement seems convenient, if the information is either relevant to the discussion or someone else already told you an equivalent. So, because you seem to disagree with my beliefs on free information exchange and only reciprocate knowledge given on goodwill on goodwill, aka when it suits you, I decided to go over into the other extreme, as well."

He then changed the subject slightly, trying to get Chambers to understand they weren`t getting anywhere.

"Based on what you said, all you`d need would be some other Mystagogue who knows anything on the Free Council to intiate `Right Exchange` with them over everything we talked about. Or you could even choose to freely share any info gained out of goodwill, hoping for info from others later. Which you no doubt do with your superiors, while holding everyone else to your agreements and giving away nothing. I don`t even know how I`m supposed or even allowed to handle any info gained by our exchange, without incurring the ire of the Mysterium, as you said...?"

he asked, confused, annoyed and slightly scared. But he managed to calm down, only to again completely turn the topic of the conversation on its` head, with a sudden burst of inspiration.

"As for things to talk about...? Let`s see... I guess we could talk about cookies? Or food at the consilium, rather. That seems to be a great idea. We could also talk about how we can get Winter to open up about some of the issues facing our Circle?"

he asked, with a questioning look.

Does this count as an attempt to start a Right Exchange bargain? Let`s see how Chambers, aka `Mr. Wrong Exchange` handles this one?

he thought, gleefully lost in his thoughts, despite remaining stoic throughout.

[Chambers]

Chambers listens patiently as Philip readjusts the approach of his ideas. A slightly bemused smile plays across his face. 'You know something I'm coming to appreciate about you.' customary pause. 'Is that your not afraid to keep trying until something is understood. Most mages double down and just but heads harder. Its admirable.' But yes as we could both predict I imagine, agree to disagree.

He gets a little animated, excited. 'Yes I think were getting somewhere on this. A rote someone cannot use because they are not ready or able to understand is to valuable a thing for them to have, they would not respect what it can do or how they came to know it. And while yes Masters can make rotes, not every master has every rote. You and I for example have the rotes we have been taught by masters, or learnt from grimoires so on so forth. Thus both master and the less experienced mage show one another respect by exchanging.' Given master level spells carry high risk of paradox safely is definitely a subjective idea here.

'Curator is the only publicly facing rank within the Mysterium. The rest I'm sworn to secrecy over.' He shrugs apologetically. And I hold my word once given in high regard.

He seems a little befuddled by this point. Someone not wanting to work with you is not dictation. 'Dictation? its basic negotiation we state our terms, if all are happy we continue, if someone isn't the exchange is either cancelled or renegotiated. No harm, no ill will. As long as everyone works in good faith.' You might want to look up examples of dictators. 'Neither side is forced, neither has a monopoly on the terms beyond the right to withdraw.'

You honestly think I'd go crying to the metaphorical parents? 'I have no cause to go running to tell anyone. If in the very unlikely chance a mage that has served as my master arrived in town, the likely hood is I would mention in passing that we spoke, same as I would telling such an individual the general information of the area. If they were interested and asked I would then likely tell them what we discussed, which is all publicly known information about my order so far. If some random higher ranking mystagogue arrives, I have no reason or cause to share anything nor they with me.' My order is secretive by default, rather the opposite of a gossip factory.

Brightening 'Ah yes the food. A nice addition I thought. And I do rather enjoy cooking. Are you thinking of bringing something?'

Face darkening then in thought. 'Winter is going to take some time to thaw I think.' Eyes flick to Philip to see if the pun was apricated. 'I thought I had something when he jumped on the competition idea at the fair but ...' He gestures to the darts poster on the corkboard. 'No one signed up for the darts contest so maybe I was wrong about that.' Shame I had a twist for that one to. 'He's unpredictable in that he talks when he thinks its appropriate, not when we want him to. But I don't think he's unwilling. Did you note how he got stuck into the conversation about numbers and truth at the fair?'

[Chambers]

We've hit 30 days and its been over three since the last post Philip Croson Xisdor I'm going close this one in 24 hours in case you have any final thing you want to add, thank you for the scene was really interesting and I had a good time

[Chambers]

Well were over 30 days now so I'm going to close this one

Chambers would continue with small talk about food and plans for circle activities until it got late, and would then thank Philip for coming, before heading home.