A necromancer's anxiety

[Corn]

"Thankfully, threats to the Awakened have abated after the Seers were dealt with. Still, I may say that I have reasons to be concerned that if they return or other Seers connected to them show up, they will be nosing around my area. " He didn't go as far as to say he has a small hallow that he is pretty sure a Seer held before him but he thinks they can connect the dots.
"So... I would like to hear what you consider "more traditional" methods of defense.
For starters, would simply installing some alarm in my house so that the police and a security company would show up if something happened, be enough? How could I stop an Obrimos from frying the cables or bypassing the alarm with a wave?" he asked Phoenyx .

To Aurora 's quite harder question, he bit his lips.
"My wife, my child and future children, my brothers and my parents, yes. Those further away... Those that try to protect everything protect nothing. Now if I can help them in mundane defenses, I will. But I am not going to risk exposure, a big paradox or drawing more and more powerful enemies to my doorstep over my mother's cousin. At some point, I have to draw the line where the Mage ends and the Sleeper begins.
However, I would be very interested to hear what consequences those may be Aurora, to better prepare. Do you mean the erosion of my soul, the taint of the abyss or drawing the attention of supernatural beings? Or going to bed knowing at night knowing I used magic, something a sleeper cannot defend from, to defend those close to me? "

I am aware that the answer to "how do I make my house more secure" etc is "buy security dots in sanctum" I am roleplaying what that could mean.

[Phoenyx]

The First Talon frowns slightly. "I think you mistake me. When I say traditional defenses I mean training yourself in the ability to defend others. That is the most effective way of being prepared. There is little you can do to deter a determined Awakened attacker without being there in person." She pauses for a moment. "That type of defense does not work in that circumstance, but that does not make it worthless. It is a suitable Sleeper deterrent. Also consider - any test is an identical obstacle to a magus without sufficient Arcana to combat it. Rather than focus on the exceptions that can bypass a measure, consider the potential benefits. The former can rule out any defense, any idea. Our powers are potentially limitless and should a banisher or Seer target you specifically or through your family, magic and physical training become your best tools. It is one of reasons the Adamantine Arrow exists."

She looks at Corn seriously. He really didn't seem to understand what they were talking about. "This is not a magical lure or side effect. Both Aurora and I are referring to the act of killing, Corn, whether by magic or by conventional weapons. It is a very real consequence of firearms training. You are learning to use an item that has the sole design of killing. Soldiers of all kinds are trained, mentally, to kill so that when they are called to do so for real they are better prepared for the personal ramifications. Training targets are often human-shaped for precisely this reason - to lessen the empathy between the shooter and the target. It is an act antithetical to the survival of a functioning society, ingrained in the human minds at a primal level. You need to consider if you are prepared, ethically and mentally, to do so. Where your morals draw the line between protection and aggression. This is not something we can tell you. There is no right or wrong answer." The Arrow's voice has softened, a rare show of gentle emotion flowing through the words. "If you do not and then kill in the heat of the moment, it is a very difficult thing to live with. Some do not." Aurora knew. The Arrow is deliberately focusing on the Moros though, determined not to give anything away about her friend.

[Aurora]

“It’s not a matter of if they return, but when.” One could not let their guard down. The Seer’s would come back at some point.

Well, at least he wasn’t going to risk the Veil. Progress.

A deep sigh, how much was she going to get into? Probably not much, but enough.

A solemn nod, “Yes, your soul is at risk, and the Abyss will not hesitate to take part of it. You’ll feel it being stolen, a part of yourself you will never get back. But you will always feel the void.” It will never be filled. “There is no preparing for that.” Her voice softer. “I can’t say I’ve never used magic against a Sleeper, because I have. But it was only when my life was in danger. It’s a hard thing to come to terms with though, and I’m not the best to advise on that.” She couldn’t even deal with her own bullshit.

This was Phoenyx’s wheel house, so she was content to let her take over the convo.

She nods in agreement about killing, but remains quiet. She didn’t want to get into her own dealings with that. It had been years since she killed, but it still felt like it happened only yesterday.

[Corn]

Corn sighed, sadly. "The act of killing..." he let the two senior members of the consilium, the most respected ones in his view, explain and talk.
Then it was perhaps his turn to share. Would he be judged for that? Perhaps. Probably. Deservedly so. They could find out anyway.

"When I pulled the trigger, I knew what I was doing and what the consequence of that simple action would be. And I repeated that action - pulling the trigger -, to be sure of the outcome.
Something changes when a person stops being a person and becomes a corpse. Something changes in the one that caused that too.
Knowledge requires sacrifices. One can never reclaim innocence, once lost.

We rationalized what we did that night by going for the narrative: Orders from above. We were told these people were hunters and that the knowledge they had was stolen from the Awakened. Some of the 'hunters' had guns. But half a dozen of them, and we didn't get more than a few scratches. We didn't use anything very bizarre either; just mage shields and enhanced senses and weapons. Not that it mattered in the end as no Sleeper walked out of that fight alive.
The books I recovered that night held truth, not the garbage the Guardians leave out. A Grimoire was recovered. My place in the Order was secured. The "blood passage" as they called it.
The Actions I had to do to recover the books... are the reason I am in Sacramento. I needed to make a break from the man that walked in that abandoned factory as the person that walked out is not the same. I had to prove my loyalty and worth to the Order by forever staining my soul. I am religious and I haven't been to a priest since. How can I confess something like that? It is the main reason I was asking if there are any sleepwalker priests when I arrived.

The main reason I keep all my mage work in the Circle," Corn said pointing to the computer in the room, "is so that there will not be a Mystagogue coming for my wife if I pass, to reclaim 'stolen' knowledge. You are an Acquisitor Aurora. Now you know that there's nothing in my house for the Order to take." Except a hallow that the Seers probably know about...

Corn shook his head to drive the dark thoughts away. At this time, he did look like a more traditional, brooding Moros.
"Forgive me. Perhaps I overshared but that act that night heavily burdens my mind. My wife sleeps with a murderer and I have to live with that. Studying superstitions is bound to have an effect on one's way of thought; I can't say I believe in Karma and superstitions but I am concerned that the actions of that night will find a way to haunt me and those that I love.
There is no taking back what I did, and I hope the price won't be paid by my loved ones. But I am afraid it will."

And there it was, aside of all other legitimate reasons to be concerned for his family, a mystagogue specializing in superstitions... is superstitious.

[Phoenyx]

The Arrow tries to catch up from the middle of the story Corn starts at. When he did what? Who went where? Isn't there usually an introduction to such stories? The Moros seemed to weave in and out of all social rules as Phonyx understood them.

"You had to kill someone to recover some books as a part of your initiation?" There is a hint of surprise. Perhaps the Mysterium were a little more dangerous than she had suspected, but also it didn't sound right. "I hope the knowledge was worth it." She didn't sound sure it would be. She loked from Corn to Aurora. "Is such a thing usual? I did not have to do that to join the Arrows."

Phoenyx takes a breath and looks back to Corn. "You made that choice and must live with it. If the result was not worth the action, it is still a lesson. KNowing what you hav edone, you have more insight inot those consequences than I realised. But that does not mean it deserves any less mindfullness or consideration."

[Aurora]

If he was worried about being judged, there was no judgement from Aurora. Actually, there was nothing from her, facial expression or anything. She simply listened.

An eyebrow quirks at the comment about his house. Was he expecting to die? Or did he think she would enter another’s home?

“I believe in karma, and that what we do will find a way to come back. What is going to haunt you is your mind and thoughts. Replaying the events over and over…wondering what you could have done differently…what happens if someone finds out…will they think less of me?” over and over and over. “There is no real reliable way to predict the future and how things will turn out. Each action and choice we’ve made are woven into our personal tapestry, leading some place in the future. I can’t help with those worries.” She had her own she dealt with. Could she share her story, maybe find common ground? Sure, but she didn’t want to. Her story was her own, and her own to tell when she was ready. "Though I can say those thoughts will continue until you find a way to come to terms with what happened." Ha! Giving advice she couldn't even follow.

Catching the look from Phoenyx, there was a shrug, “I haven’t heard of it before. But I know different chapters of the Mysterium do things differently. I didn’t have to do anything like that when I joined.” Would she have killed to join? She wasn’t sure.

[Corn]

Corn nodded to Aurora "I appreciate the Input, Aurora. I have the fears you mentioned. I am processing what happened that night and I believe moving here, getting married and starting a family would help. Current doubts not included - I do have doubts and I still feel guilt. But I am glad I could talk about them. "

To answer Phoenyx , he took a moment.
"The knowledge itself? Perhaps not. And I say that as a Daduchos of the order.
But we had to keep that away from the hands of Hunters or evil sleeper societies and we were told these people were Hunters. We did what we thought we had to do. Killing Hunters or an occultist society that stole books from mages, implied they killed the mage to get the books, didn't seem that bad. Until I actually had to take part in a mass murder. To this day, I am not sure these people were hunters. We didn't give them a trial. We were told to go there and get the books from Hunters. I was close, the high-ups thought stolen knowledge may be there, so I was included. By that time, I have relocated away from San Franscisco although I still considered myself part of that Consilium.
The abandoned factory was near my hometown. My hometown. 20-30 minutes drive from the place I was staying. And I was told it was either Hunters or at the very least an occult society with too much knowledge that didn't stop at anything to get their hands on more knowledge they couldn't use. I thought it could be a front for Seers.
If it was Hunters or Seer minions, they were woefully underprepared.

But what I am trying to say, Phoenyx, and please do not take it wrong, is that 6 people died that night because we were prepared, ethically and mentally to kill. Perhaps with lies, probably with lies, but at the time we were.
And when you walk into a place prepared to kill over some books, You kill over some books.
We didn't really examine other possible avenues. We didn't try to steal the books. We didn't try framing them for drugs, terrorism or both and call the police. We went in, prepared to kill.
So, the moment we were detected, We didn't ask questions, we didn't stop to verify if the person we were shooting at was armed. When the smoke cleared we found out that three of the people killed were not armed. We rationalized that by saying they could have reached for a hidden or dropped gun or escape. We were defending ourselves and the mage community and the Veil. Things like that. Things that are true.
But...

When you are mentally and ethically prepared to kill, you often overlook other ways.
When Soldiers are sent to the front, Councilor, it's because it has already decided that violence is the answer.

This is why I want to be prepared with different ways first. Killing is last resort. But if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Please, don't take this wrong. I do not mean any disrespect for you, or your Order. We wouldn't be around if it was not for people like you.
Also, I certainly do not underestimate the wisdom of being prepared and trained and even prepared to kill if you have to. I am of the Mysterium because I believe that knowledge is often the answer, that knowledge unlocks potential.

As for the Mysterium and what people have to do to enter... No, it is not common to require killings. But it is not that uncommon either. When you recover something for the order, we don't go out of our way to make sure that no sleepers are harmed. Aurora is an Acquisitor. What happens if she tracks down an atlantean relic that sits on the desk of a Mobster? We will take it back.
Whatever it takes. In that case, it doesn't hurt to be ethically and morally prepared to kill. "

[Phoenyx]

There is a nod in agreement with Aurora's assessment. It was nice, knowing there was someone definitely on the same page as you. "It seems out of place for people intent on preserving knowledge."

"You are mistaken," the Arrow states simply. "You were not prepared to kill. You had only been told to kill and how - you not been taught the consequences, only to obey. There is a difference between being prepared to do something, and blindly following the orders that tell you to." Her voice is carefully level, though more tense than before. "You did not question the orders. 'Whatever it takes' is the absolute of a zealot to a cause, with more belief in the wisdom of doctrine than their own reason. Orders come from a person, and a person can always be mistaken. A Soldier, a good soldier, properly trained, does not blindly obey. They must weigh every order against their conscience, their belief, because actions cannot be undone. Had you been suitably prepared, you would not carry such guilt." That was the gulf between this and dealing with Aurora's guilt. At least they knew what they were doing going in, and was as close an even fight as Mages can ever have.

Her focus is intently on Corn at this point. "Despite your protestations and claims of respect you are implying soldiers are mere swords - obedient from on high. No thought between issue of order and action. And some can be - those that are failed by their teachers, that take the easy path of following blindly. That is not Enlightened. It is not Wise. You have not learned one of the lessons from your own past - that one prepared to kill is taught what killing means before the event. Not just to the one they kill but to themselves. They should never obey simply because they are ordered. You believe they do, because you were failed in that education." The Arrow pauses, taking a slow breath. When she continues, the edge has mostly left their voice. "I do not blame you for this. You should have been taught. If you were deceived, if you believe you acted as you should with all the information you possessed at the time and would do exactly so again, then there is no reason for guilt. However, if you failed to offer alternatives because you believed this was wrong, if you obeyed without a second thought and then regret your choice, that is between you and your conscience. You must learn from that failing. And if you believe you were deceived by your superiors in the Mysterium, I can only suggest you consider what that means for your Order as a whole. Do better than your predecessors and realize the ends do not always justify the means."

Phoenyx folds her hands in front of her. "It is clear you understand more than I has assumed, but less than I might hope. And should you doubt my understanding, know I have killed and people following me have died in the pursuit of their orders. The difference between you and I is I would take those exact same actions again." She blinked - for a tiny moment, it seemed as if her eye was watering. "I hope what I have explained was informative. However all this discussion, while insightful, strays from your original request. I will teach you firearms if that is your wish. Should you prefer less lethal alternatives, consider studying Arcana that can disable without violence, or actively being able to defend physically. The former is your own choice, the latter I can make myself available for. Unless you wish to begin this moment, we have circled back and I can only offer you the same solutions I did before. If you do not, I will excuse myself, for I have duties to attend to."

The Arrow stood at ease, waiting for a response. Hopefully it would be concise. But she doubted it.

[Aurora]

Looking to Corn, debating her words, “I’ve always been told that running from the problem isn’t solving it. You’re setting yourself up to have some kind of mental break, and not a good one.” She knew she hadn’t dealt with her own baggage, but she also knew it never went away on its own. “Take some time to just deal with what happened. I think once you do, you’ll be in a better place.” So good at advice…so bad at taking it.

“See, I would have had an issue without some more intel on what was going on. There are other ways to gather what you seek without death. There are Arcana’s that allow you numerous nonlethal measures. Now, don’t get me wrong, I understand that sometimes death is part of what we do.” She understood it all too well. “I just think blindly going into a place with the purpose to kill those there and gather a book seems a bit iffy.” And maybe that was just her. But she would want more information before pulling the trigger on that spell that would end a life.

“If you were mentally prepared, then why the second guessing and guilt?” she asks, point blank. His story didn’t sit well.

Whoa, wait a second here, a hand was held up, “Hold on a second there. I am willing to take great risks for the Mysterium, and even kill if I have to. But I will always try other avenues first. Yes, I’m a Master of Life, but I have other means to incapacitate a target before murder, and I will exhaust those first. Unless my life or anothers is on the line.” sounding a bit offended. There were always other reasons.

And then Phoenyx lays it all out there. Point blank, no questions asked. Which was why she respected the Arrow. You wanted facts, you got them, there was no sugar coating it. And with as serious of a topic as it was, there should be no sugar coating.

“I will always advise someone to take less lethal measures if possible. I can kill, very quickly and very painfully, but I can also shut down many of my target’s senses, giving me and my allies the upper hand.” Shrugging. Maybe she just wasn’t anxious to kill again.

[Corn]

Aurora 's outbreak on not going for the kill first got him by surprise. "Of course I would advise non-lethal means first, Aurora! I think you guys got the wrong idea here. The Mysterium is not a bunch of thugs that whack people and steal their things and I apologize if I gave you that impression. I am very much against killing. I would do it to protect myself and my loved ones, but I am not a monster.

As for your earlier question, Aurora, I was mentally prepared for the danger and if I had to, to kill bloodthirsty hunters, occultists or seer minions that were out to kill us and steal our knowledge to use it for nefarious purposes. Or so I thought.
I was not mentally prepared for the doubt that this was the case, as Phoenyx said. That we may actually be the bad guys there, because the higher-ups wanted the books out of Sleeper hands and didn't want witnesses.
There are people that Firebombed Dresden, knowingly killing civilians in a firestorm to curb the morale of the German people and win the war. I wouldn't be among those people although I don't judge them nor consider them war criminals. And I am not mentally prepared to do that. "
Shit, did she guess that I am withholding information? That the reason I killed my professor was more tied to my stupidity? Corn thought. But he was not ready to tell his colleagues everything.

"Would I do it again?" Corn thought as Phoenyx spoke. "I would look deeper in ways to avoid it. I would discuss with the others what to do if we didn't find people with a "clearly evil" tag on them. I would have asked the higher-ups for more information about this group except their numbers and location.
But it was a time-sensitive mission; they were all gathered there together. That was the time to act. We didn't have the luxury to do a stake out nor the numbers to scry on them and attack them separately and cover up the kills.
If it came down to it... yes, I think I would do most of the things I did, although I really didn't like it." But I would wear a fucking mask so that professor Cherneski wouldn't be able to identify me.

Wits + Empathy roll to get some reading on why Phoenyx was so intent when talking to him about soldiers. Whether she was angry with him or strongly disagreed that soldiers blindly obey orders or disappointed that he, a mage, blindly followed orders that led him kill people.

1 success

Date	Action	Roll	Result
2021-12-20 13:04:21	Corn rolls 4 to Wits + Emp (10 Again)	1, 7, 9, 4	1 success

But in the end, Phoenyx, blessed she be, gave him a way out of the discussion. She went back to the beginning.
"It can never hurt to be better prepared to fight, if I have to. I would like to train in firearms and I appreciate the offer. I would also like to discuss strategy, ways to use non-lethal applications of my arcana, or simply use my arcana more effectively, with whomever of you is willing and available.
The philosophical discussion about soldiers, killings and the Awakened, we can shelve for a different time. I respect your opinion and I partially agree, if it matters."