Necessary Discussions

Jun 13th, 2017 02:35 PM

"Really?" When Alexander spoke again, that particular topic seemed to be resolved, but the Mirrorskin was curious. "How long did it take the 'Hold to feed such a Sovereign to the dogs? Or was he chased out?" A Summer being a power-hungry maniac didn't require any stretch of imagination. A Summer - or any self-respecting Lost - that would stand for something like this was, however, inconceivable. "And in the case of our hypothetical Ogre pacifist, I'd say: convince him! Sell him on the idea that the lives he'd be able to save outweight whatever moral conflict he might have. Every Spring courtier with two brain cells to rub together understands that there can be no Desire where there is no life."

"I completely agree we have to look over the specific wording." Sure, it might've been a huge investment of time to write this thing, but it's not like he has done this before, and to ensure that everything is clear and works as intended is critical. "Which brings us to the issue of Seasonal Sovereigns. There's three of us, and four Seasons, which means at least one Sovereign is going to remain just that. In the particular case of Spring, the Queen is going to lead a Court only Summer rivals in numbers." It wasn't a prideful statement, just bringing up a fact. Besides, he experienced firsthand how quickly the Lost may come and go from here. "Is she - or whoever leads a Season and does not sit here - to be allowed and advisory vote? On what matters? We should strive to keep the leadership consistent, while not letting anyone feel left out. This is partly addressed in the last point of Chapter Three, but if you think we should write it in specifically..." He suspends his voice, eager to hear their input.

The topic of murder is going to be ahotly-debated one, now and in the future, that's for sure. A couple of interesting proposals fled over his head, as Sasha and Mhairi spoke about the Pledges at a trial.

"And in all those Freeholds, do you think the're just going to greet a stranger with open arms, and not inquire why did he leave his original setting? We have it gentle with our vetting process, even though both Otto and Circe can attest that I did ask them about any violent encounters thy might've had. But not all leaders are so understanding, and I've heard in some places the scrutiny is unbelievable. Still." He continued. "It's a matter of replacing one word with another. If you both deem it just, let the democracy win."

To Sasha: "Binding magic is useful, but Mhairi has a point in saying we'd need to know if the supposed victim doesn't play us. As far as I know, there is none, short of making another Pledge, between the victim and the judge. <<But can the judge be trusted?>> some will ask themselves, and we would be right back when we started. Speaking of which, we'd need a procedure to remove a member of the Hierarchy that doesn't make it too easy, but also doesn't threaten to throw the entire community into civil war. And as for the evidence: no crime is perfect, there are always traces behind, and witness accounts are but some of them. It's the tangible that counts." In his view, magic can't blow up in your face if there's no magic to begin with, an opinion not everyone shared.

Jun 14th, 2017 06:19 PM

She returns a grin to the Ashen Queen. "I'm familiar with some Lore, mostly with Winter. But I've been around long enough to recall some pledges and how they have worked in the past. It will of course take some research, but I'd hope I could still consult you if the need should arise?"

"Due to things beyond our control, I think he was welcomed for the most part. I never trusted him, found him very off-putting and could never figure out why." Shaking her head. "But, he wasn't ran out of town. He and the rest of the old Monarchs left town to pursue some endeavors of their own for a while. Mrs. Rosemary and Katrin had both been in Sacramento for ages." It was another story for another time and she made that partially clear in her tone.

While listening to Alex's other points, she looked at Mhairi. "I think leaving it slightly uneven is okay, for now. If there is something vital that requires all four Sovereigns, they will be pulled in for their input immediately. I know you were new Alexander and suddenly got this role, but Mhairi and I have been here a while, so in some strange way, it is balanced." It was something to address further down the road.

What the Darkling spoke of truly reminded her of Spartan. Of course, it had been a long time since she'd worked closely with someone of the opposite Court again. Looking to both of them. "Of course there is as level of distrust to newcomers. We were all those newcomers once. Obviously, it's easy enough to prove yourself, it just takes time. Trust me, in the past, if I were the reigning sovereign back in the day, I would have instantly kicked some people out. To come in and offend a Sovereign barely walking through the door to the Coronation? It was abysmal."

Sasha was glad the Elemental liked her idea, it was a relief, yet there were still things surrounding the idea that could make it tricky. "I'm sure there is a way to craft the pledge to have honesty surface first and foremost." There were many tricks to these things, which is why that the Crafting of them had to be specific. "I'll just have to research it. I'm sure it comes in the form of proper wording for the Wyrd."

She nodded at the rest of what Alexander had to say. There were some things that didn't need arguing, they just needed to 'be.'

"Speaking of moving things and making things run smoothly. I think we need some sort of main office area, gift shop, etc. that if people are new or we need to have a general meeting of some nature, like this one, that it's neutral." For some reason, the Dancer was always looking out for those that were Courtless.

**Mhairi Ankaa** · Jun 15th, 2017 12:57 PM

Nodding happily to Sasha, "Yeah, of course. Anytime."

Turning to Alexander, "You might be able to talk to people like that. But I know I can't. Not anymore." Mhairi supplies bluntly, noting bringing up the possible pacifist ogre who'd rather die then go against their Oath to pick up arms again.

"Or two. If you don't become King." Mhairi points out with an more of her Elemental bluntness. "But it's good that there's only three in the Hierarchy, there's always one to look at the other two, and be the deciding vote, or devil's advocate. And, making sure that not every Sovereign's in means that they're always there to poke at us...if that makes sense. Offer different perspectives and smack us if we get a little to, uh...arrogant." Mhairi settles, on when she really meant was 'a little more like Them'. "And yeah, having them on, if they want for whatever, if we need their advice or something sounds good. Including them, especially when it's their Season sounds good."

Fell-flames turn back to the paper, "This...is all sort...something that falls under common sense....I don't know why we'd need to outline it, but at the same time, I get why we'd need to outline it. People can be stupid, and if it's not in the laws they'll argue against it when they do something stupid." Mhairi frowns. "Maybe not, we don't even accept new arrivals with open arms, but we don't interrogate them, and I'm sure they could find a 'hold that would do the same. A softer process, and boom, they have another 'hold. Or they do until they trip up again. Then they just have to run, and try and try again. Take the Hedge paths and they could get half-way around the world easily."

Mhairi lips twist upward, "Morgan told me about her meeting with the Sovereigns. Something about annoying them all or offending them all, all at once?" the Steepscrambler hadn't gone into detail, and Mhairi didn't really ask, not wanting to bring up bad memories for the raccoon.

"Oh for sure there's a way." Mhairi nods, "You just need to word it right, limit the time the truth must be spoken, and the other half of the Pledge could be to only ask questions pertaining to the case." The wisp nods again, a Pledge sworn for an hour or a day, with one party having to tell the truth and the other sworn to only ask important questions....it could totally work.

"Hmmm? Oh yeah, we should have something like that. A gift shop front, and then maybe a Gate in the back so the 'hold could have a Commons?" Mhairi says, thinking thinking that an office was nice, but a place in the hedge was nicer. Offering better privacy when they were talking about things best kept away from mortal ears.

Jun 15th, 2017 04:28 PM

Sasha provides a handful of interesting remarks, but for the most part Alexander doesn't feel compelled to comment, mostly because they were statements of facts rather than opinions. Only after she mentions the goal of honesty in a pledge being a thing, he breaks his own silence.

"I'll take your word for it." The Groundskeeper doesn't sound too convinced, though. There's no such thing as a contract without loopholes, not if it's less than a thousand pages long, and even then... but like he said, he's likely the least experienced in such matters of all those present, and a gut feeling is not evidence, so he keeps the concern to himself. "And I think establishing some sort of common space is a worthy goal. A gift shop has the advantage of a possible Gate" like Mhairi said. "But personally I'd vote for repurposing one of the rooms in our office space into a conference hall, with a large round table and maybe some useful electronics, like projectors. I think it'd be a comfortable setting for official Freehold meetings. Not everyone is comfortable within the Thorns"

What really puzzles him is the answer the Director gives to the Ogre pacifist example. He doesn't have the slightest idea what she could mean, but is oddly convinced it's rooted in personal experience. It's something to inquire about... in private. Like with the Onyx Monarch, what she says about the Sovereigns either reiterates his points or is in complete agreement with them, so there's no need to pursue that topic.

"I dare you to go to the California State Senate and tell the people there they don't need a Constitution, because it's all just common sense. Just please bring a camera with you, I'd pay money to see their reactions." He shakes his head. "The thing with common sense is that it's not common at all. It's not about people being too stupid to behave, it's about the fact that most folks that made up this community for years are gone, replaced by strangers who only just got here. They need a common bedrock to build trust without needing to establish an overcomplicated net of Pledges."

The Darkling's eyes trail from one person to another, to see whether they share this viewpoint or wish to contest it.

Jun 17th, 2017 07:26 PM

The Dancer pointed her finger upward. "Yes, that did happen. I had heard about it after the fact. It was a difficult meeting, I remember that much. I'm sure the context was probably something about Fairweather." Saying the Dragon's name softer than the rest of her sentence.

"And this is why there are three. One to hopefully remain level headed in a disagreement." She smiled at the two of them before more sniping continued.

The Dancer breathed in and out, it was hard to say if it was her cold breath or her breath moving around the chilly air from the air-conditioner. "I think this is great, it just needs some tweaking. Of course, some things are and should be common sense. Yet, I've seen some of the likes of people who have come through here. Several of them you had to spell it out before they'd get it sunk into their heads. I am not saying they were stupid, but they were stubborn and liked to push their limits. So this is a good idea once we fine tune it." Her words seemed to have a finalizing that she wanted no more arguing. The Dancer didn't really mean to voice it that way, but it just came out.

"I'm sure we can find a way to do it all and be accommodating. Something in the Hedge, perhaps for Coronations so we can feel the full weight of season changes. Yet, I agree with the gift shop and meeting space. Many gift shops had something of large meeting spaces or places children and families could rent to host large gatherings, it wouldn't be a stretch or odd."

The Onyx took a long chug of her coffee and rose, fixing her skirt with one hand. "Refills?" Because she was certainly going to get her own. The Fairest was beginning to see why some people drank.

"Have all of the Seasons found an attraction yet?" She said loud enough over the whir of the air unit, while pouring her coffee.

**Mhairi Ankaa** · Jun 18th, 2017 01:13 PM

Mhairi could understand people being afraid of the Hedge, but for her, it was a keening resonance that you lived with. You dealt with it, and if it didn't flee, you swallowed down the uncomfortable feeling, grinning, bearing it. Maybe that was the difference between the Court of Fear and everyone else.

The Ashen Wisp takes a full breath, and counts. But it doesn't help. She doesn't know why, but her inner fire burns. And Sasha, wishing for no more arguments, hadn't outright said so, and for an Elemental not focused on her, not trying to read the hard facial and tonal queues misses them completely.

"Alexander, didn't you listen to what I said? I said I know why something like this is needed. Even when I think it should be common sense. I know common sense isn't common. But what I'm trying to understand is why we need a whole thing done up. We might not be human anymore, but that doesn't mean we're not American." the Leaden Queen pauses, annoyed at the Darkling who seemed to want to sideline her to just a a referee. But they were Lost and emulated their captors and kept Kings and Queens alive. In this Hierarchy she was the High point, the High Queen of them all, and he wouldn't just walk all over her. "Why do you think we need a whole written constitutions, when have one? We're not human, so we should amend things to work for us, but..." she shakes her head. "And I'm not talking about an 'over complicated net of Pledges'." her dripping fingers drop from where they'd done air quotes. "Sasha and I are the only people here who remember what the 'hold used to be. Sasha's been here years longer then me. And before new Lost were Sworn in. There was never any trust. And I can see that being a constant stat without something in place. And I don't think that's good." Mhairi tells the Darkling quite seriously. "What I'm talking about is something simple. Something like the Oath we used to have, but that wouldn't weigh on the Sovereigns so heavily when someone leaves. If we word this one right, the Hierarchy - us - won't need another Pledge to prove to everyone that we wont abuse our position. Sworn on our Seeming, Court, or something else of value. Our Mortal ties. If we brake something like that....there are consequences, the Wyrd could reject you, your Court could reject you. The Wyrd will divorce you from whatever you've Sworn on. Pledge for a Season. The Summer Solstice is coming up, we can do a test run them. From Summer to Autumn. See how it goes."

Then on the other Pledge she proposed. "It's as simple as having the accused Swear that until sun up or down whichever's sooner they will speak the truth to whomever as them questions, on pain of...something, the degree of the crime could be represented by the Pledge. Death, Wyrd. Seeming. Anything. Then the other person will Swear to only ask the accused questions about the crime during the time they're Pledge bound to be truthful. Simple." She really didn't understand the darkling's need to over complicate things.

Mhairi shakes her head, moving on from those thoughts, and agreeing with Sasha. Who she still wanted to call L'aire. "A dual space would be great, a place for people to rent out wouldn't raise as many eyebrows as a fancy boardroom for a kiddie park."

For a refill Mhairi nods, "Autumn has Edna's-turned-Haunted House, Spring their Wishing Well, Winter the maze and Summer their....paintball? Lazer tag? Thing." the question is directed at the only Summer in the room.

Jun 19th, 2017 02:28 PM

"Absolutely, tweaks should be made, preferably first by us three and then by some wider circle." The Mirrorskin said, while refilling his cup with hot coffee, in accordance with Sasha's proposition. "I'd limit our merry jaunts to the Hedge if I were you. Call me a slacker, but I've heard the neighbors are just terrible and I'd hate for them to crash our party. The rentable space thing sounds good, though." But hey, what does he know? The Hedge and whatever lives within or beyond it are decidedly not his specialty.

What the Dancer had said bore the subtle social cues that the matter is more or less decided, at least to the point of it being on the table. However, the Queen of Thieves is either oblivious to them (which wouldn't be that surprising given her faerie heritage, Alexander thought not without some satisfaction) or chooses to ignore them in order to strengthen her position (very probable, power dynamics can be fickle). He entertains the thought of dropping the subject, but then scolds himself for considering it: you are not a very good Summer if you back down from a challenge. For the entire tirade, his eyes remained expressionless, but focused.

"You accuse me of overcomplicating things, but are you certain that in so doing you don't oversimplify them? I don't feel like repeating myself, but I'll say this: until you present an Oath so worded that it confers the same amount of protection to everyone and doesn't <<bitch-slap>> us, as you so gracefully said, every time someone feels like disappearing into the night I won't believe that it can possibly exist. What I propose is not ideal, maybe not even close, but at least it is." One sip of coffee later, he continues on. "Pledges work for narrowly defined things, like murder investigations, but not things so grand." There was a slight note of appreciation of how Mhairi proposed to resolve the suspect hearing topic Alexander hopes goes unnoticed by the Elemental. "Let's see what the Spring Queen has to say, and if she's for it, then we can do some grown-up talk with the others."

Mhairi explains the attractions of each Season, leaving a question mark for the Mirrorskin to dispel. "The High Striker. It's a laser tag arena. Apparently paintball is a no-no in a park like this, at least as far as the permit-scribers are concerned."

Jun 23rd, 2017 09:58 AM

Unfortunately, Mhairi wasn't around when there was a wonderful time of Trust in the Freehold. But, they also had members who no one would want to cross. Swilla, Spartan, Rook, Rick; all of them could be quite scary if they wanted to.

"We need a middle ground, that is evidently clear." She said while reclaiming her seat. "There is a way, I'm sure of it. Yes it needs to be simple, but it also has to be sound. Loopholes suck, sometimes there isn't a way to plan for them because there are tricky ways they've been found. I think what matters here is that if someone wants to be sworn to the freehold, maybe not right away, chances are they aren't likely to want to break that Pledge or violate any constitution. There will be warning signs for those who are quick to swear that have an agenda. We've all seen it happen before, I'm sure."

The Wishing Well was a curious attraction. It puzzled the Fairest on what they'd do with it, or it's purpose. "Hmm, I should inquire with the Springs what the intent of the Well is. I'm just curious is all." Chuckling a little. "A few years back, Springs had asked us all for Wishes or something of that nature. It was a task for their whole court to help other members out. I think mine was the only one that wasn't fulfilled." Sasha chuckled a bit more, it was neither here nor there anymore.

**Mhairi Ankaa** · Jun 23rd, 2017 01:11 PM

"There's us, then the rest of the 'hold. We don't have the numbers to roll out changes like this incrementally." Was Alexander just used to thinking big with his mundane job, or did he seriously think they'd get the numbers to make that plan viable.

Mhairi opens and closes her mouth a few times before she answers, the scent of the dead and dying leaves intensifying, as the rain that follows her spatters harder against the ground. "You can't tell me not to go into the Hedge." her fell-flames flicker and burn, Mhairi shakes her head, her opinion of self-admitted spy falling farther. "I am an Autumn." she stresses, "And not only that, but the Leaden Queen." her fell-flames burn brighter as she stares at the mirrorskin, "Tell me again not to go into the Hedge."

The fierce frown the Dread Queen wears hardens farther,

"I'm being simplistic in my wording because it was an idea to see if you were receptive. Or to see if you had a suggestion to the wording. But, here, words. 'I swear to tell questioner the truth from until the sun rises or falls - whichever's next, on pain of death.' then for the other party, 'I swear to ask the accused only questions that pertain to the crime, until the sun rises or falls, upon my own seeming." a beat, "Then, for something to bind us to the 'hold. The oathtaker Swears upon an Emblem, for one turn of the Season, to be Sworn again the next Season, to protect the Freehold, and it's members, to abide by our laws, and to not betray us to our enemies.

"See. Simple." she takes a breath, steam escaping her mouth as the heat from within meets the chill of AC and the Mantle of the Winter Queen.

"People making wishes are thinking about their Desires." Mhairi quietly says after her outburst. "Haven't you wandered passed the wishing well and felt the glamour coming from it?"

Jun 23rd, 2017 05:09 PM

Of course. How did he not see this? How could he be so blind? This, all of this, is not about some fine points written on a piece of paper before them. It's about one thing, and one thing only.

Power.

With how Mhairi underscores her titulature it seems she just can't get enough. "If you took the time to actually listen, you'd know I don't tell you what to do or not do. You can poke hobgoblins with sticks all day for all I care, I know you're more than capable of taking care of yourself. But newsflash: not everyone pays homage to Autumn, and not everyone wants to go there if they can help it." The Autumn Queen does a fine job of hiding her fury, and Alexander returns the favor with acting calm as well.

The "Witness Pledge" as he called it inside his head is expectedly sound, but as the Wisp finishes explaining the wording of her "binding" Pledge he shakes his head, a gesture that could be read as almost patronizing by those not socially inept.

"If by <<the laws>> you mean this" he points a finger at the document that caused all this ruckus. "Then I do believe a simple signature will suffice, and it does contain a choice of suitable punishments. If you don't, however, then I really don't see what you're referring to. And regardless, words like <<protect>> or <<betray>> are terribly ambigous."

Necessary Discussions

Wyrd

•••

Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Wyrd

•••

Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Wyrd

•••

Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Members who have read this thread : 19

Similar Threads

Elysium (1904)Keeper Discussions

Haven Surprise Discussions

Hollow Fall Discussions

Circle Group Discussions

Discussions of Law and Residency

Necessary Discussions

Wyrd ••• Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Wyrd ••• Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Wyrd ••• Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Members who have read this thread : 19

Similar Threads

Elysium (1904)Keeper Discussions

Haven Surprise Discussions

Hollow Fall Discussions

Circle Group Discussions

Discussions of Law and Residency

Wyrd

•••

Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Wyrd

•••

Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric

Wyrd

•••

Ask-wee-da-eed Telluric