Tea and talks on the river

[Chambers]

Of the reasons he had committed to his chosen pursuit of seeing the Consilium restored. Earning praise had not been among them. "What I have done is only what any mage given time and stud is capable of. But yes I do think awakened word needs to mean something, so if a commitment is made it should be held to." When the Consilium was still far from secure or established, with many obstacles still to over come that he received such praise was in away concerning. I would prefer help to a pedestal. "And from what I hear you must have quite the history in the city from the respect other returning mages have for you." Fair turn around and all.

The topic of self defence seemed to be one of those ever present things on fringe of things that would be good to have but has yet to manifest. "I think you would see some take up if you did, it was discussed for a while. I think the primary obstacle was corn wanting to use automatons." After I talked him down from murder robots. A few moments are spent in contemplation. "But I would wager having someone who actually knows what they are doing would be very welcomed." Corn nor any of the others who had suggested to run such training had manifested, it would be curious to see if that trend broke.

Listening calmly, followed by a gentle nod. "I see, my apologies I misunderstood you." The talk of personal use had thrown him it seems. "Yes art for others is a risky affair. If hey know or risk learning of our nature." Which is why shadow names, covers and false identities.

Talk of philosophy is always interesting, particularly awakened philosophy although it of course required a little more care. Although what self respecting mystagogue would not care for any tit bit, any tease of anything that harkened back to Atlantis itself. "The necessity of opposition." An understandable concept although he was willing to admit he probabaly didn't grasp the full weight of it in a way am member of the order who held such ideals would. "If I understand it, the idea that without a challenge to overcome you are more likely to stagnate or not show worth?" Always better to ask one who knows. "The Mysterium has protocols as well and in unusual twist for us they are not secrets." A gentle smile at his jest poking fun at the perceived reputation of his order as jealous hoarders of arcane lore and secrets. "But we only have four of those." Not that it was a contest. "My order encourages the practices of right scholarship, right exchange, right apprenticeship, and right authority." A pause to drink his tea and provide an opening for questions should there be any interest.

Placing his cup down on one of the many surfaces that dot his living area he takes the time to compose his thoughts on the matter. "I pushed for this model to minimise conflict where possible. And respect the orders." Lets start in reverse. "For example do you know who the right person to go to is if you want to talk to the guardians or Mysterium in as an order?" He knew who the guardians in their midst were but who actually dealt with the public matters he had no clue. "As for the conflict well." This risks bruising a few egos. "The watchtowers are our connection to supernal truth. To wisdom. What awakened us before the vast majority even knew of the orders." Unless a very privileged sleepwalker or proximi happened to awake. "Mages come in every character I understand that. But the watchtowers provide a first point of common ground. A way to facilitate a conversation and feel the person representing you does actually have some common ground with you. Regardless of how high or low the order representative actually stands. The truth of the path will always be known to those who walk it." And how to put this. "And order ideology can clash much harder then path in my experience. Path is a matter of empathy and understanding we have differing experiences. Orders are things we tend to choose and thus defend with more fervour and more readily." There was no fool proof system and the Moros did not think to have found one, he was simply trying to facilitate things as best he was able. "I am open to criticisms of my process, if you think I have erred please." Opening the conversation, seemingly unafraid of putting his models to the test.

[Phoenyx]

The lithe woman shrugs. "The Arrows beleive strongly in standing by our words. I swore an Oath to protect the Concillium. While I may not have tried to rebuild a Charter, I have focused on ensuring the mages are protected. Some have seen this more directly than others." She sips her tea again. "If there is anything in the History that might be useful I would be happy to provide it to the Concil, although much of what I know Aurora does as well."

Phoenyx sighs a little at the mention of Automatons. "I had heard such things. I consider it too big a risk. I hope the return of the Arrows has put such things to rest."

A shake of the head is given with asmall smile. "No apology necessary." It was easy to interpret such things differently, especially if there was a crossed medium.

The Arrow smiles a little wider. "Just so. We refer to the precept as 'Existance is War.' This can be interpreted in many ways; not stagnating is a good alternate phrasing. Our worth is ion our Service and duty to the Pentacle. The tenat is about challenging ourselves to develop our skills in all fields, not just combat." She nods - The Mysterium's laws mostly made sense, however... "Right authority? As in, who has the right to hold Authority over people or places?" Her tone wasn't accusatory, simply curious.

The question doesn't seem like a test; still, it felt appropriate to answer. The Arrow could be incredibly literal. "Winter and Aurora, as the mages of those Orders that have been in the city the longest." She frowns a little, thinking. "I am not sure I see the conflict, but I was more referring to new arrivals already in an Order. Our Watchtowers ties us to the Supernal as individuals but it is a place anyone not on a Path can theoretically encounter, guided by their experience but not what they take from those experiences. It isn't a common ground of principle, it is a common place everyone on our respecive Path has been. Ideologies between orders are more in opposition, but when assessing a new Mage seeking acknoweledgement does it not provide a smoother introduction to have a guarantee of commonalities borne of Order?" The Arrow argues with a calm logic engaging with the discussing Chambers has with a differing opinion.

[Chambers]

An inclination of the head. "It's a good belief to have." One that he could still see many ways to interpret but the premise was certainly admirable. "It is a endeavour I have no doubt has been and will be appreciated." The idea that times would always be quite and calm was not one he subscribed to. "When I arrived we had more or less nothing to go off, any unresolved mysteries or investigations, threats, hotspots. It would all be appreciated. Certain things have filtered through or been hinted at." He had nothing to trade for this he was well beyond his efforts to see things restored and standards upheld.

A gentle laugh that requires him to put his tea down. "You, me, and I think most mages in the Consilium. But I haven't heard him mention them for awhile so I hope he has listened to the value of why they would not be ideal for the Consilium." He had no way to know if that was due to the sudden arrival of several arrows or not.

He listens politely as Phoenyx expounds just a little on arrow philosophy. "Your not wrong." He could not fault the arrows logic on that. They were in a constant war for reality. But it seemed deeper and more personal then that. "Would I be right in thinking the enemy of this war is the self in a sense? Or is it in reference to our wider existence?" Maybe both?

That right authority is the protocol to be queried was interesting. Normally people like to go for right exchange. "Yes. We are not the free council. We have and support structures of authority. The protocol of right authority helps us remove bias and politics to a degree and establish those hierarchies." It could an interesting conversation for sure. "Right authority encourages consideration of exceptional qualities in a mage. The ability to progress through legitimate power structures. The degree of power a mage possesses and by virtue the truth and knowledge such a mage possess this is usually viewed by rote knowledge and gnosis." Far from qualities for leadership in and of themselves. "But must always be tempered by sanity. And those who can't adhere to the social norms of the pentacle should not even be considered for leadership or governing positions. After all considerations those who lead should display the proper attitude. They should be teachers, not lords." And that was just the the protocol in its simplest form. His tea is reclaimed as he finishes his own explanation.

A slight shake of the head not condescending merely indicating a wrong answer. "I chose those two orders because they are archetypically most secretive. And like to remain so. We do not have a curator in the Mysterium currently." A self evident truth. No public face, no steadying hand. His fingers entwining around his cup as he considers. "I disagree with you here I am afraid. While there will not be identical philosophy I am not suggesting such. There are certain truths of each realm, each watchtower." And besides that. "I also think you have missed something. Who would handle the apostates who wish to join the Consilium if it is handled by order representatives?" The unique nature of Sacramento made it hard to gauge what should be in place but paths seemed easier to represent then orders.

[Phoenyx]

The Arrow nods. "Once we have addressed the Charter, I could provide some key past events. While considering the Charter I can cover parts of history if they become pertinent as examples."

How much should philosophy of an order be revealed? The Arrows were not a Secretive order, in the widest sense. They had always protected, and those that are protected needed to know what principles guided their guardians... Ironically making the Guardians of the Veil highly mistrusted. "Not a war upon the self. More a battle against complacency, apathy. We watch for our enemies, even in times of seeming peace. Arrows are encouraged to take considered action, not endless debate. It is balanced by another tenet - the Supernal is the Self. We are supernal beings and contain universes. As awakened souls, we are rare and have value, but only if we strive to achieve our potential. If we commit ourselves, there is no limit we cannot eventually surpass. This is not done without action."

Phoneyx listens to the outline of Authority with an interested expression. When the Moros reaches for his tea, she nods. "The Arrows are very similar. We prefer an established hierarchy, though more for orders to be issued effectively in the field. Similarly though rank is not based solely on combat skill alone but strategy, achievement and Wisdom. It also comes with responsibility. It is said a Throne is a Warrior's prison. It grants prestige, but restricts our freedom with responsibilities and duty. For my Order, this is reflected by many avoiding titles unless they tie into our oaths, duties or ethics." The Obrimos had clear belief in her Order's structure and rules. It was what she had been taught, and she held it close.

Her face turned into a frown. Phoenyx had clearly misunderstood, but still felt she did and had been tricked in some way. She watches Chambers thoughtfully. "As you have said, mages are more likely to be more committed to their Orders and it allows a common link, a mutually respectful access into a new city. Based on that alone it would make introductions easier, where members of the same Watchower may have less immediately obvious commonalities. I would be curious to see where you and Corn have your similarities based on watchtower alone." The Arrow pulled a wry smile. She did have a sense of humour, it was just spartan and dry. Still, it felt like a valid example. "I did not, I wished to posit the argument first. Since the Concillium has clearly decided to continue a Council of Paths, I was attempting to posit an alternative pathway that would benefit the majority of Mages. With the structure continuing as extant, any mage would attempt to find their councilor first. Failing that, an initiated mage would consult the ranking member of their Order while an Apostate would seek other members of their Path." She watches Chambers, a little smile playing on her lips. It was nice to have intellectual debate in a peaceful environment.

[Chambers]

He accepts the proposition with a gentle smile. "That would be very helpful and most welcome, thank you." But he will not pry or poke despite the curiosity, the apprehension and on some things he has come to know. The worry. What His guest chooses to make known to him is entirely her own prerogative. "But yes the charter first, that is what we are here for. And that alone could fill weeks of discussion." Such things were not written overnight or with haste, doing so would both disrespect the task and risk some glaring and otherwise avoidable error. No in this he was content to give it the time it needed to form in a way that was strong and effective.

She has his attention, and he weighs each word turning it over in his own thoughts the better to know it. "That makes sense. I think. Just because we do not see them we know the seers, banishers, Scelesti, the mad and all manner of other threats exist and many of them actively oppose us." It was a matter of when not if. And being watchful only made sense given the context of their existence. The supernal is the self. That sends into more internally focused contemplation as he tries to fit the idea within a framework of his own understanding and not entirely succeeding. "When we know reality is a lie then yes the natural next step to understand all things are possible and came be overcome, surpassed. Providing we know how." There is a core difference it would appear at first glance between their ideologies. Or does it? I would have to guess that would focus in how we define action? "This is a sleeper comparison used to categorise characters in stories mind so I doubt it will work perfectly. Are you familiar with the archetypes of the questing knight and the passive scholar?" It was after all better to be sure and ask then assume.

That right authority had not been immediately bucked was a very pleasant surprise. Drinking the last of his tea, this cup of it at any rate. "We are not entirely dissimilar in our views I would have to say. Although thrones are not just warriors prisons, the restrict scholars to." The tasks he had set himself consumed a great deal of time and effort. "But I am grateful for the restrictions, the official nature of such things. Before we had them I was nearly operating with Carte blanch in terms of any keeping me to account for how I went about getting the Consilium back on its feet. And that was far more uncomfortable then the position I find myself in now." But regardless I had to push for a councillor position to continue my efforts. The main driving force between him contending Corn for it was to continue nurturing the consilium's growth and establishment. But now at least I have more then just my safeguard to keep me to account should I step off the path.

The frown is met with a slight tilt of the head, unsure exactly of what it meant. But whatever misstep he might have made the arrow clearly wishes to continue, and he is quite willing. Even chuckling slightly as the wayward awakened of the lead coin is brought into the conversation. "Stygia is perhaps the area Corn and I have the most common ground on. It is general conduct and order politics were we clash." If their relationship had been defined on the watchtower alone the two would be rather amicable he would have to imagine. "We started out on a better foot because of it. It is that we share a path, that I am his councillor, that I am investing my efforts into his situation. I can put my dislike of the man aside more easily because of that." But he has an example of his own to offer back. "You are not the first arrow I meet in the city. Before any of the current members arrived or returned another mage returned, known to Corn and Aurora. He went by Puck and claimed a title proudly declaring for all to hear that he was first talon of Sacramento." He watches her now. Curiosity clear, his tone not antagonistic, simply stating a historical event, kept neutral. "He danced about his acknowledgement, made implications and was quite clear in that he thought us all fools and he knew best, made claims of his duties. He made promises of protection and then showed what they were work by storming off in a huff." That had been a bizarre day. "Philip handled him well, knew what to look for, how to get through the mercurial nature that enchanters are so known for. How would you have handled him?" Because in that brief encounter he had shown anything but what Phoenyx was teaching him of arrow philosophy. He is walking on dangerous ground, few like it when they have to be accountable for others but considers it fair turn around for bringing Corn into the mix.

He gets so contemplative it is almost possible to see him stroking the beard he does not have. Instead he gazes into the remnants of his cup thinking. Listening. Processing. "I understand where you are coming from and it is a noble thing to consider, but would it? be best for a majority mages I mean." What is best can be such a dangerous and subjective consideration. "Being represented by your order, how often would it push mages who are not yet ready or qualified into positions that only set them up to fall? For example to fill the role of curator now, would only bring the displeasure of the wider Mysterium upon Sacramento. And the mage who claimed it more so. "They might have the reputation for being nothing more then occult librarians to many but it was not a fate anyone who knew better would seek to bring on themselves. "As we can't fill it currently, our order would be left without representation." Politics had a lot of red tape. "By entrusting the paths to choose representatives we can at least alleviate a great deal of political difficulties, while ensuring every mage of the Consilium is represented." And offer the seats to those deemed wise across many spectrums not just echo chambers of order ideology. A thought that if it had been voiced he was aware would get a pot and kettle retort or similar.

[Phoenyx]

Phoenyx finishes her tea and sets the mug on the table. She shakes her head, then pauses. "The Questing knight was when a newly graduated squire would go on a challange to gain renown and prove his skill, yes? Or is this a paired metaphor?"

She nods. This told her more about Chambers - seeking for the mutual agreement of his peers reinforced her initial impressions of one who sought to serve rather than seek office for himself. It was a quality she could understand and respect. "The city was often considered a wild, ungoverned area. Some saw that as a chance to be left alone or have more freedom. We watched one another, and kept the Gold Laws, but we were few. As numbers grow, rules need to be more defined."

"Such effort should also be made by their Order superior," the Arrow repostes with a small shrug. However, on the mention of Puck, the Obrimos' expression darkens. However, if she seems offended or insulted by the example, she did not refuse to answer. "I had heard such a thing. Slim, blonde? Utterly self-assured?" She waits for the confirmation before continuing. "When I departed the city Puck was not an Arrow but a member of the Free Council. He would have become an Arrow only very recently and would have been inexperienced in his understanding. They were always very self-assured - regardless of advice or reason offered." It was as close as she could feel comfortable insulting another Mage. Her Pride only stretched so far. The arrogant approach of the Acanthius also sounded classic Puck. "However, as an Arrow, I would have taken him aside and challenged his right to First Talon. I knew his status and experience and would be in my right to do so. The attitude you describe is a clear impression of their attitude to anyone during my last tenure and reflects the person, not the philosophy he was supposed to have bound to. I would hope to restore the impression of the Order from such a... blunt initial appearence." argue her It was an unfortunate example, but that just made it another challenge, and Existance was War. He had tarnished the Order's name. That was the last straw. I will see you corrected for this, Puck.

The Arrow looks almost confused by the arguement. "You are describing my first tenure as Councillor. I considered myself unrerady of the four members of the Path but none no others were suitable. If we are not pushed into unfamiliarity, how can we grow and develop as people?" It was a very Phoenyx thing to say, although it may be hard for Chambers to know that. "The same arguments you are using for Path also can be applied to Order. If a Path drops to a single member, which has happened many times, they are pushed inot the role. The political difficulties you seek to elliviate only are returned in a Concil that leans towards one ideology. However, as i said, since it is clear we will adhere to the Path Model, I would appreciate Order members being behind Path Councillor as a valid position of aknowledgement." The Argument is level and measured, not a passionate force of rhetoric.