Con Spells Cloaked
Supreme Aug:Pre+3 Man+2 dur 12hrs;Skill Mastery Socialize+2 Persuasion+4 dur 12 hrs
(2006) Formal June
42220
THREADID
51
POSTS
41 - 50
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"I'm.. not sure," the Arrow admits to Star. "I haven't created a whole system. I've just watched this one stuggle for the last two years to even make a council work. Having between a third and half the concillium nominally in charge? It's pointless. We may as well all have a vote in things like trials. Just duelling things out favours strength, not necessarily wisdom. We would have to trust those who are stongest are also Wisest..."
Like Campenella. Like you. You have always seemed reasonable. But what if you choose not to be?
"... which I suppose we have to do anyway."
Phoenyx looked to Avis. She seemed... sensible, but she didn't know the new Space Master. It also didn't get her out of the damned chair, as she'd hoped - but that didn't matter. "I suppose it does reflect the collective philosophy more, but all that does is place us with a different five people that may not fill spaces. And we're right back where we were." She looks bout with dark eyes. "With so few of us, we may as well all have a say on what we do as a Concillium, on laws broken, on anything. Most people say their peice anyway. And if people don't want that... well. Don't come, I suppose. Be separate. I don't want that. Without us there is no Concillium. We may as well all have a say because there's so few of us do we need to be represented when we can just turn up?"
It sounded a little Free-Council-ly. But this wasn't Atlantis. It wasn't enough for a block. It was less than 20 people. Anyone who cared may as well say. Anyone who didn't, may as well not.
Also, how did people be this verbose all the time? It was exhausting.
"Better idea. How about instead of you greeting all the new folks, we put a listing of Order heads for newcomers, that way you only deal with Apostates and Arrows. That way no Guardians, Mystagogues, and Ladders think you're, you know, shaking them down," she said, "You can be a little intense is all I'm saying and you've already signaled you ain't all that comfortable with the dealing with people thing."
Then Tyche snaps her fingers, shooting a finger gun Star's way.
"Clarification is important," she says, "If y'all want to go that way, fine, but if that's the case, might be best to buddy up if you can. You'll cover more territory that way and have less trouble going forward."
Avis coming in with the hard truths.
"She's not wrong," Tyche says, supporting her cabal-mate, "If we all wanna do our thing in Sacramento, it'll be a helluva lot easier knowing we can maybe get a little support from the outside now and again. And you get that from the Orders. Not some loose association with the Paths. I don't need to tell ya that the size of our little community here is little small. And I know for some looking to the Orders is a super big pill to swallow, but, when you really look at things in the big picture? Worth swallowing."
Heh.
She was referring to the Apostates, naturally. Sacramento had, what? Two? Three? Couple that with lone Free Councilman Anima, because Pixel hadn't shown. Four max. And there was no sense in appealing to a minority that was against the more formal system of Orders. It was inefficient.
"Mmkay... As much as I'm sure Anima would love that, I'm gonna oppose it," Tyche said as Pheonyx suggested a communal vote, "I get that there isn't a lot of us, but if you think a group of Councilors based on their paths is inefficient, how do you think a community vote is really going to go? When you go the individual approach, everything comes off as personal and I don't need bad blood developing between me and another mage because of my feelings on a vote anymore than you do. I suggest using the highest ranking members of each order. It keeps it simple and puts forth an organized response bereft of that sense of personal feelings. I'm curious why you are resisting it, if I'm honest."
"Then there is the Wild West option. Circle used as neutral ground while we all attend to our respective business and come to each other when we need help," Tyche mused, "I'm not saying it's perfect and I know I've said before that I'm not for this model, but if organization is the problem historically it might be best to go with that."
If we were all in Cabals we could do a system around that, but so many want to run solo.
"And I'm curious why you think it's personal?"
Eyes fell to Tyche. He really didn't have a strong opinion on the model itself, and was for the most part happy to stay silent. However, the notion that an individual vote on a Lex Offender versus the councilor vote would be inherently more personal was one he found to be unfounded.
"I'd imagine resistance to order councilors would make the same amount of sense as resistance to path councilors. As people ebb and flow from communities the orders will shift as easily as the paths. A council based on orders also leaves Apostates with the choice to fake beliefs they may not have or go unrepresented. And I'm personally adamantly against the idea of outside help. If we can't take responsibility for our own people we don't deserve a babysitter to come and hold our hands."
The Mysterium was all about responsibility, at least to Ignus. Carefully monitoring the flow of information and adhering to the established Rites in favor trading seemed like plenty to keep unsavory elements checked. As for the rest?
"I'd say just let the cabals and solitaires go about their business. We only vote if or when a violation of the Lex comes up or to hash out issues brought to the communities attention. We don't need to make this an ironclad commandment moving forward so why not experiment with different models for a while? If the assembly doesn't work we just move on to order councilors, or wild west, or whatever. For now we just need to agree that we only need to pull out the Official Business Hats under specific circumstances, meaning a violation or circumstance covered by the Lex Magica."
Part of him didn't really like the idea of experimentation to much. He liked things that worked, but the history didn't really sound like it supported the de facto model. So if the Arrow can work out the idea behind the duel arcane in real time out loud, maybe the Mystogogue can question the line between habit and history.
As talk turned to how to handle things, she had to close her eyes and just think.
There was a lot of good said both for and against.
“Wild west style is going to cause problems I believe. We’ve already had Awakened here that have proven they will and do break our laws. Who’s going to be the ones to handle those breaches when they happen? Because historically, they do. And while nothing has been insanely altering to our lives here, it could happen.” A shrug.
“But if we want to go the way suggested by Ignus, only vote when we have to. For things like causing a breach or something else stupid, I can get behind it. And getting outside help makes us look like kids playing grownup who epically failed. While outside help brings with it the chance for someone impartial, it will cause more problems in my opinion." and make them look incompetent.
"I know we won’t find an answer everyone likes either. But that’s my two cents on the whole thing.” But if they were going to go wild west? Then this wasn’t the Consilium she thought it was.
I propose to leave this thread open for the weekend if anyone wants to continue. And because I'll be away. We can wrap next week and kick off a new Consilium.
The doctor, sits silently, as the debate rages. It hasn't been his place to speak up after all. As his name gets bandied around, he is reminded he has a voice in this place. Phoenyx opened the floodgates after all.
"The Pentacle, the Paths, the Cabals, they are all an attempt to recognize an authority. Mass voting, very Assembly, but also unreliable as our numbers are in a constant state of mass flux," he pauses briefly, the placid face not revealing his mind. "A vote that may represent the majority one day, does not the next. I propose a Council of Masters. Magi who have been in Sacramento long enough to be intimately aware of its own special problems, and have developed an understanding of the Truth and the Lie. If a master fails to develop wisdom along that path, then surely their lack will have been or will be their unmaking. Masters tend to be less... nomadic, in my experience. Perhaps that will help. You could call for a vote of Councillors with only Masters eligible for nomination. You could keep the Council of Paths but only a Master may sit on the council, and empty seats are just that. We have strived for a perfect system, it is time to settle on a system that works with what we are and what we have."
He sits back in his chair, expression calm and unrevealing. Spirit courts are so much easier to reason with than Awakened ones.
Tyche listens to Ignus, but just... slowly blinks.
"Organization and established hierarchy helps people feel more secure and a vote from a Council of merit has the means of relaying to the rest that it is being made with intention in mind," she states, "Established Councilors check and balance one another. Individual voters don't."
It seemed their newest Mystagogue was adamant on abandoning the suggestion of traditional leadership almost on arrival. Still, he had made good points.
"With respect, Master Aurora, changing the government of the Consilium every time we meet formally is a problem as well," she offers before looking between Ignus and the Thrysus, "However, given the flux of the population, I am willing to budge on the idea of a Council. For the moment. Until persons of appropriate merit for leadership can fill the seats that have been lost."
See? Tyche wasn't a total stonewall. She could adjust, sometimes she just didn't like to.
Then spoke Anima and, honestly, his words caught Tyche by surprise. She was impressed.
"Your model would fit with the task of leadership by merit. However, I see problems being created if two Masters of the same path becoming a reality and paths without a Master feeling underrepresented," she said, "However, your experience in regards to Mastery and Sacramento is not as informative as you might believe. At least two of our resident Masters have left and returned only recently. Mastery does not equate to long term residency."
"I am of a mind to agree with the model Magus Ignus has presented," Tyche admits, "As much as I dislike the idea of a mass vote, it is clear there have been struggles with the formation of a established Council. Relative autonomy for cabals and solitaires will be necessary in seeing to our respective duties and studies. To that end, it would be helpful to provide some information to the greater whole regarding the territories of cabals and individuals. That way no one steps on anyone else's toes. That said, during meetings, I think we could still benefit from an individual guiding the proceedings and keeping us on an agenda when we do meet. A Speaker of a sort. Otherwise? We'll be right back here in a couple of months."
Phoenyx looks at Tyche for a moment. Then she smiles, a rare enough moment in itself. "I suppose. That would make sense."
She's smart. Foolish mages rarely lasted long, of course, but it was nice to actually have a discorse. Plus it kept more people out of her hair. Intense? I think I like that.
Ignus is fixed with a stare for a moment. She didn't like people trying to speak for her, but one had to be reasonable in the face of the assumptions. "If there were more of us, I would say a Council of Orders is best as it balances philosophies. I am only reticent because it still calls for up to five of the whole Concillium to be a council, which is a key part our current issue." The Arrow felt reasonably sure Tyche would understand that. She looks to Ignus. "Sometimes outside help is necessary, personal feelings aside." A small shrug.
The First Talon listeneed to Aurora and Anima thoughtfully, and nods in agreement as Tyche speaks again to dismiss his idea. "I concur," she says slowly to the cute Enchanter.
Cute?
"As far as I knew there were no Cabals in the City, the last ones disolving some time ago. Magus Star made to claim West Sacramento, an area previously requested to be given birth by Magus Campenella in his time as Hierarch. Talon Skye and I reside here in the Circle to be on hand for it's protecton. Not precisely laying a claim, since all Orders have a place here - but as out magical center it makes sense for it to be protected." The Arrow gives a half-shrug. "We can consider that the proposal, discuss with ourselves, and prepare choices for the next meeting in September. Any who wich to be the speaker can announce themselves then?"
This was exhausting, but people seemed to be coming around to the idea.
"Governance by Order only makes sense if Apostate's have a seat at the table. At best you'd have people joining Orders that don't fit and at worst you'd have those that are being governed without representation.
"Sounds like we're gonna organize around Cabals, which could work, but again what about those that can't or don't choose to join one. Are you expecting folks to accept your governance and not be given a voice?" His eyes rolled across the room, how many apostates were here, how many independents. He didn't really have a better idea than Animus' or Tyche's honestly, you needed a stable foundation to build from and that was hard to do in a state of flux.
"The core of it is you need a stable foundation to build from as far as leadership goes. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater though as the laws in place have lead and guided for how long? I think we're all in agreement that the 'Wild West' style isn't the best option."
Skye just leaned back in her chair, people were talking politics and that was one area she neither enjoyed nor was she good at it and she had no real sense of the city itself yet either. True a lot of what people were saying held merit and might be good but then again there seemed to be one or more issues with each and every single idea and placement as such it was better to just be silent on the matters altogether, better to not get to deeply into things and get into a corner.
Still it was good to hear peoples thoughts and ideas on the matter, getting some history and learning where people stand that information could be used in the days to come and would be of great help in knowing who everyone truly were later on.
Keeping her usual calm demeanor, trying to not really react at all just taking things in whilst thinking feeling good that no one really looks to her or talks of her more than the little mention that she does reside here out of necessity.
The talks of cabals were interesting though, it would be fun to be a part of starting one or even to join one should others establish one. Not that the magical aspect of it were here main focus but rather to have a group of people around her again and if the words were true so were there a lot of people here not currently in one that might see this as the time to start thinking of starting one.