Fall and Answer
40529
THREADID
60
POSTS
41 - 50
DISPLAYED
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Words flowed around the room, some more loaded then others. Simone read them quietly and sipped her coffee without comment. There were more than enough people here who seemed to like the sound of their own voices without the Darkling adding to the din.
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Presence
Rigid Mask
Summer MantleHe blinked at Rhodes' comment as the man stared at him. Attention to what detail? He was told consistently to dial it back.
He simply shrugged at the King, taking a sip of his coffee with a wink.
It was nice to hear the Courtiers hammering out policy with varying perspectives. Mr. Moon seemed to hone right in on real world examples and steps that one could take. He preferred Orion's way of speaking, skimming out all the bullshit of a very complicated topic so the Elemental didn't have to do the normal work of sifting.
"Just because someone has signed onto the Contract doesn't mean they're qualified in the slightest. With the petition process, at least someone's suitability for intervention can be assessed, I guess."
Mr. Moon looks at Rhodes, his quicksilver eyes squinting at the man. "Dread Lord, if the patient is consenting of their own free will, then there is no need to bother the Monarchs. It would be prudent, of course, to lay out the goals of the treatment in unambiguous terms on paper so that if questions or concerns arise, both parties can refer back to it as needed. When I say we shouldn't have our agency tampered with by each other, that includes our independence. I am less concerned with reassuring parties and more concerned with making sure the right decision is being made by everyone involved."
"Fear is a drive, Exegesis." Mr. Moon says. "As is Wrath, and Sorrow, and every other emotion that percolates through all of our brains. I believe," he nods towards Orion, "and please, correct me if I am mistaken, that Orion puts this in Autumn's bailiwick because it is a thorny question that approaches how the Gentry think and behave, and how easy it is for us to loose track of the human perspective and become more like Them simply because we have more options than mortals do. Who could stop us if one of use decided to, say, volunteer at a soup kitchen and trick mortals into dreaming vows so we can dive into their minds and make them better just for practice. They'd never be able to stop us and no one would ever know, but even when done with the best of intentions that kind of capability can warp your outlook on what is right and wrong. The Autumn Court studies these things, the same way that Summer studies martial pursuits. If the Leaden Mirror isn't already asking these kinds of questions, then we need to be asking them." It wasn't all about how many Contracts you've mastered, or how many white hairs you've given mortals. The Wyrd was an incredibly complex thing and no one changeling could ever approach being an expert on.
"The scenario we are talking about is if the patient can not or will not consent. As Orion says, it becomes a question of how far we are willing to push boundaries because we think it is necessary, or it is in the patient's best interests. Who are we to decide," Mr. Moon nods to Exegesis, "what is best for someone who cannot express their desires, or disagrees with us on what their best interests are? That is why I would advise seeking the advice of the Monarchs, so that you are not solely relying on your own judgement. I would hope, especially in a Freehold as small as this one, that they would know their courtiers well enough to know what they would wish were they in their right minds, or they would know who among the freehold they could speak with to determine this. And then in the end if they say no, or they decide to approach someone else to perform the therapy then you, you need to accept that." He sips from his cup. "If you don't, then I would start to question how objective you really are being with your decisions on what is best for the patient and what is best for your Ego."
Mr. Moon sips his tea as he assembles a thought. "Let me posit another scenario, Dread Lord. Seraphina has fallen into a catatonic state, through no fault of her own. Everyone in the Freehold agrees that it is entirely reasonable to go into her mind and rehabilitate her sanity. There is an outpouring of support of from everyone to ensure she gets the best care possible. However, in the process of engaging with her dreams, it becomes apparent that her grasp of reality has become so shaken that she is terrified beyond reason that she has been taken back to Arcadia. That perhaps she never escaped, and her freedom was all a cruel trick. It is extremely likely that she will either seek to end her life the moment she has a chance, or that she will strike out against whichever changeling is keeping her safe at any moment. She is Spring, and a Fairest, it is entirely possible that she could twist other changelings around to her point of view. What do you think is the proper course of action?"
Orion remained focused on the real topic, the important topic, the ethical piece that would help guide him in his practices going forward. The rest, the sniping, it could wait until he asked the Corporal about it later. Mr. Moon offered his wizened thoughts, citing the dangers of letting just anybody decide what is appropriate for an oneiromancer, and how one should talk to almost every bloody Monarch down the line. The sentiment of oversight was something he could agree with, but he didn't feel that talking to everyone under the sun in an emergency situation was necessary. The High Monarch would suffice, as far as he was concerned, but it was a point that made him think. He was a trained dream therapist, mentored by an Oneirophysic once upon a time, given his knowledge. He believed his motives pure, but what if he himself began to slip? What if he was wrong about what a Lost's grip on reality really was?
Or what if the Courtier of Fear was just being paranoid?
The Autumn King's perspective was that the use of dreams to sooth mental conditions wasn't fast. In Orion's experience, it was a hell of a lot faster than talk therapy, but he did rightly point out the risks. When the Monarch suggested that he get consent and a Pledge first, the Ogre nodded. "I apologize for not being more clear. Of course, a Dreaming Pledge would be the first thing any dream therapist ought to do. I had just assumed that had been tried and failed. I should have said clearly that the hypothetical patient was not capable or did not give consent for whatever reason, but is clearly out of touch with Reality. Like the kind of person authorities might commit for their own safety, or something of that nature."
In reply to Exegesis, the Ogre turned and said, "When I say it's Fall's bailiwick, I don't intend to toss out the contributions and relevance of other Courts - I practice in dreams, but I'm a Summer Courtier, after all. But generally speaking, when I am looking for a high-detail opinion of a super obscure topic involving the magics of the Wyrd, typically, I go to Fall. That's what I mean when I say it's their bailiwick. They do magicks like nobody else." Clearly, the Ogre thought very highly of Autumn's purpose in the Seasonal Court structure. "Moon's got the gist of what I'm asking about."
After that, he remained quiet, letting the conversation flow. He was here to listen and hear the opinions of others, not slam his on the table. If he'd wanted to do that... well. That was what martial arts practice was for.
He should've brought a notebook. The amount of points the others are making, and the amount of words they use is staggering, almost too much to filter and process. The only exception being that new Summer, Simone - Abraham eyes her curiously for a long moment when the others speak, and if the woman meets his stare, he won't even pretend he isn't.
And the other Spear, the Ogre... "Any experience with 'diving?" He was, like all Brutes, big and strong, but there is plenty of 'big and strong' bones in the Hedgebeasts' lairs, belonging to those having complete trust in muscle.
"Reality is subjective, King Rhodes. Anyone saying they have a completely objective answer to an ethical call is either a liar or a fool. We can and should do Pledges or ask the Monarchs, but at the end of the day - the decision rests with us" He says "So yes, I believe they are... permitted to do so. One of the consequences they ought to accept is an angry Spring knight-errant acting as fun police when they abuse the permission" He smirks "Of course, said knight-errant has the right to act not because he is morally superior, but because - in his mind - that's the right thing to do. He, in turn, will have to face the consequences of intervention"
Abraham never really gotten around to explore the theory behind hedgespinning, much less Tokens. So when Moon speaks of that Bag of his, the Flowering's eyes gleam with interest. In the academic sense, sure, but deeper down he'd just be content to see the exquisite creation, to partake in its beauty. But daydreaming - that's for another time.
"I don't know about that Gorgon part. They are rare, and more importantly - deadlier than a cuckolded husband. The cost would have to be staggering, unless the hob didn't really know what he is selling" He smiles "But I suppose it works, and that's what matters - right?"
In the flood of words regarding Oneiromancy, the ones regarding Seraphina catch his interest the most. One reason for this is that Moon's scenario was unsettlingly real to any Fairest, the other - Abraham wanted to see Rhodes' reaction to what he knew was stepping on very thin ice.
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Presence
Distinctive Voice
Rigid Mask
Mantle - Chilling breeze, summoning tiny leaves
Rhodes nods to Exegesis. "Please take care of it, and return it here when you're done. I got that copy in the Hedge - It's quite precious."
4 successes
Date Action Roll Result 2019-05-30 13:55:45 Rhodes rolls 9 to What are you winking at? Wits+Emp+spec-Rigid Mask (10 Again, WillPower) 3, 5, 8, 9, 6, 4, 5, 8, 9 4 successes
The Dread Lord watches Fawkes for several seconds, but says nothing. Some leaves twist into existence near his feet.
Not qualified because they've signed the contract? I'll store that one away.
The squint of Moon is met with an arched eyebrow. "You said the bare minimum was to contact the monarchs - that suggested to me you meant for all cases. If you did not, and consider agreement between the two parties is sufficient, that clarifies the position." Pedantic? perhaps, but clarification was important.
The temperature near to the Dread Lord drops considerably as Moon postulates his example. Rhodes' eyes turn hard, and never leave Moon until he has finished speaking. When he eventually replies, the response is clipped but leaden with weight. "I think most would agree that my judgement would be compromised in such a case." It's certainly an answer, but avoids the Flowering from giving his own response. Because even I don't know how far I would go. Probably further than any of them are willing to hear. Have any of them even loved again since? Probably not.
Date Action Roll Result 2019-05-30 14:23:54 Rhodes rolls 8 to Evade answering the question: Manip+Subter (9 Again) 9, 10, 7, 5, 2, 2, 9, 7, 7, 6, 3 3 successes
He looks to Orion, and gives the Ogre a smile. "I was not trying to make this difficult. Merely ensuring everyone knows that such pledges are possible to grant access to Dreams. But for the sort of person you describe? Someone that cannot give consent - possibly a risk to themselves, or the Freehold at large? We do not incarcerate - even the idea is abhorrent. So what options are left? We have been through more than most can ever know. It is not their fault. We have a responsibility to try to help them. And if we police ourselves," He inclines his head to Moon, "it can reassure others. And finally, if they cannot be helped... what then?" The soft tones make the suggestion all too clear.
The Flowering turns to his kith-cousin - strangely an ally in his view. It was entertaining the Knight thought he would know if someone was in his dreams. There was never a guarantee. "'Reality is subjective'? I will have to remember that one. Far more often the perception is that reality is enduring, and it is our perception that is subjective - ours more than many." He smiles. "So you believe that if the Oneiromancer accepts the consequences of their actions they are free to act as they choose? After all, we are talking about acting without said permission..." A glance to the Wizened. "And people have the right to act because.... they believe it is right? I'm sure Mr Moon would disagree." Yes. Rather than continuously being the needle against Moon's hand-holding philosophy, have the courtiers slug it out. One is King, after all.
Just for reference with the rolls: Rhodes is trying to figure out why Fawkes is winking, gauging his motivation.
He's also evading the question Moon posited - because he doubts they will agree with the response.
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Presence
Rigid Mask
Summer MantleRhodes pings no apparent feelings associated with the random gesture.
Fawkes has no idea what the hell Rhodes is going on about.
The Elemental's shown to be smart with his communication. Thus, he likely gauged this would be confusing, and is messing with the Fairest overthinking the exchange. Cheeky bastard.
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Presence (Assertive)
Mantle: Spring
"If I might try to bear down what you are saying, Mr. Moon, to its essentials, and at risk of repeating our Autumnal lord, the idea is this; 'What if we have a potential patient, who is not giving consent or can't, for whom not treating them is a potential threat to others?
I think we would have to gauge the level of the threat, since action can't be taken lightly. Observation could be a way of diffusing the threat if it is minor enough. To my mind, personal sovereignty is a cardinal issue, so refusal should be treated somewhat differently than the inability to give consent.
If a person refuses consent, I think we need to honor that to as great a degree as we reasonably can. For someone that cannot give consent I would call it reasonable to give treatment on the basis that we it's reasonable to assume that the average person wants their mental health.
As another issue though, in the mortal world, at least in parts of it, next of kin has a say, to greater or lesser degree. The mortal world honors the marriage bond in this way, as I think we also should, but might we not also honor the individual's motley with a similar right?"
Noticing the Spring Fairest, Abraham, looking at her, Simone locks eyes with him and gives a shrug. It was easy to read. It stated, Whatever.
She stood up, breaking eye contact with Abraham as her legs and back stretched out. Her eyes slowly, purposefully, glanced at those in the room before resting upon the most senior member, the one heading up this little discussion group.
"Thanks for the evening, sir, and the coffee. Time for me to go."
Body language for those reading? Irritated, with a hint of what's the point?
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Presence
Rigid Mask
Summer MantleIf they can't be helped. You kill them.
"Reality endures, but that doesn't affect us over time," Fawkes said, adding to Abraham. "It isn't just perception. Literally nothing about us makes sense outside the patterns we take away from the dream. Most of it is just feeling, or discovered by accident before its passed along in text." He squints at all the jabbering.
"Orion's talking about professional agency in emergencies that require immediate action, Mr. Moon is talking about policy and chain of command in terms of a developing medical condition. Two different things," the Elemental clarifies.
"Simone's right about training, which allows for a standard and code of conduct that the Freehold can expect and adhere to. Emergency response needs very basic tenants, then all the bullshit is sorted after." His eyes click to Moon, "You'll never be able to sift through every case. That's why you adapt your policy at regular intervals or when a novel situation presents itself."
The idea of philosophical musing was clearly lost on him. Fawkes just wanted results.
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