Mage OOC Talk and Questions

[Fedup]

ReubanBrightwood Xisdor Fedup

Re: The Aethernet

I think something needs to be clarified OOC for something to be understood IC.

When you entered play, you should have read this thread which explains the mage venue and where to put things. In that thread, under The Heralds, it explains that that is the place to be making IC announcements in writing or video/audio files(Concilium is still fair game as well as or in addition to the Aethernet).

The Aethernet was established as a thread to place those announcements without them being lost in the endless status tallies that also go there. If you actually read the thread as well, you'll see my earlier post for a plot summary promised at concilium and published in writing rather than online. The IC Aethernet is established by the Assembly sure, but it's also not restricted to any order or specific accounts. So the thread itself is a no exception place for everyone to post and access information, and any libertine who says otherwise is technically a heretic to be expelled by the order since restricting information is a major no no for them.

If you don't put your announcements in the right forum, they aren't formally made. I swear I'm not trying to shit on your idea to use a bulletin board though. My point/issue is how is anyone supposed to know what's posted to this board if you haven't put your announcements in the right forum? Sure it's only been a few months now, but what happens next year when your still doing it this way and everyone has to sift through over a years worth of posting to find out what's been posted to it? And why is that process preferable over you guys just posting in the correct spaces already labeled for you?

Here are my 2 cents:
As you say, Xander, the Aethernet is broadcasted and shared and accessible years later.
Not everything is and should be like that, in my opinion. A note from Phillip to Chambers of "Chambers, Beers in the near future? Here's my number" or who pledged to bring sausages and that the grill is Aurora's, is something that years from now, our characters should not be able to see nor our characters would be interested for it to be recorded.
For stuff like "Tentacle transmission" or important stuff, the Aethernet is, in my opinion, objectively better.

Furthermore, another point, albeit also not big, might be that it is controlled by the Free Council. Yes, I doubt they would censor information. Especially when "They" are 1-2 people at most so we would know who did it - as the person that sent the message that was censored will be aware.
However, that doesn't mean we wouldn't be using the services provided by another order. Some of us, may prefer to avoid that, especially for things that could be not important.
Last but not least, in the past, we had mages that lived "off the grid" without even a cellphone. Unless I remember wrong (and I may be) one of them was a Libertine actually.

So, all in all, the Aethernet of course serves a function. That doesn't mean the board won't serve one either.
The cook-out is not something for the Aethernet in my opinion.

[Xander]

A note about this barbecue should have been in the comms subforum since it's explicit function is that kind of communication. See this post as an example of nonelectronic mail and, again, read the things you were supposed to read. Even the post I linked you to explicitly stated it was printed out and distributed by hand.​

As for what our characters should be able to see? That's not your call and I'm ignoring it. We have rules for what can be seen and where, just like we have rules for what to post where.

[Fedup]

A note about this barbecue should have been in the comms subforum since it's explicit function is that kind of communication. See this post as an example of nonelectronic mail and, again, read the things you were supposed to read. Even the post I linked you to explicitly stated it was printed out and distributed by hand.​

As for what our characters should be able to see? That's not your call and I'm ignoring it. We have rules for what can be seen and where, just like we have rules for what to post where.

And such posts, if you check how the message board has been used, are indeed posted in the comms, like here.
So, I don't understand what you are objecting at.
The heralds are for
"

• Used to tally status.
• Where to make in character announcements for the other mages.
• Announcements for Order/Path meets, etc.

"

The Comms are for the message board. Did I get that wrong?

[ReubanBrightwood]

Hi Xander

Firstly your objections are fair but lets not forget that neither you, nor I nor fedup, get to decide what is ultimately ruled as legitimate that power resides with Youngblood Who is overseeing the venue.

So some context. Communication was an issue and I wanted to find away for mages to contact each other IC without needing to hand over personal contact details. This was for the purpose of facilitating meet ups and social scenes. Once the idea of getting official meetings had legs the board already, in use, seemed like a natural way to do that.

In early days I was just posting the letters in the thread opens, so Deltadream gave me some advise to start putting them on the comms board as the notices are effectively public letters. So That is what I have been doing. Working on the advise given to me by those longer standing.

When looking for a means to make communication work better yes I did read the athernet but as a thread with 9 total posts that had not been used in 7 and 1/2 years, its importance went overlooked. Hands up that's on me. But given that even during it's existence mages sending mail Is hardly a new thing, I thought I had a reasonable method.

From what I summarise your priority objection is why is this not in the heralds thread? -- so I offer a solution. What is stopping me making a new thread in Heralds called corkboard that people post their notices to and I update once a month with a list of which notices are still on it? ---That would put in the right place, and allow people who like what it offers to use it.

Yours Sincerncerly

Reuban

[Xisdor]

Dear Xander,

Yes I read the things I was supposed to read, and I even briefly considered having Philip agree with Puck, but then I figured: How can systems last used more than half a decade ago (and before Philip`s Awakening) still be in use? (OOC, I mean) (And by extension: how can he just randomly obtain IC information for things that happened so long ago before his time that I didn`t even know the mages those posts were about existed?) Just like ReubanBrightwood said.

That was my mistake, and I`m sorry. I assumed too much, and that was the root problem.

I do have to add though. As far as that is concerned and I understand it, no one brought up the Aethernet vs. bulletin board issue IC or OOC in the past four months since the start of Sanctuary 2312, when ReubanBrightwood first wrote that Chambers had put the bulletin board up and started using it for his purposes. So if this was a mistake, this was a collective error, because this site is in a way peer-reviewed, with everyone periodically reading what everyone else posts. Not Vincent, not Deltadream, not Orianna, not the storyteller and not any of the other admins on this server, (or you OOC for that matter) has raised any objections in four months, so I assumed the board was implicitly accepted.

Again, if this presentation of events is wrong, I apologise to everyone I included in this post and that`s on me.

Anyway, as to the heresy thing you mentioned regarding prevention of information transfer and hoarding of secrets, Philip had a slight paradigm shift after his talk with Chambers and his explanation of Right Exchange, causing him to be distrustful of Mystagogues in general. Meanwhile Puck gets his distrust for being a Free Council traitor. He`s going with the crowd he`s with and he`s not a fool. If this has IC consequences in the future, so be it. Despite this, he is still an idealist and wants to implement free information transfer, but he`ll suggest that later to a more receptive crowd.

Sincerely,
Xisdor

[Fedup]

Again, this is my two cents and as ReubanBrightwood it is nothing more than the opinion of a single person:
Both the corkboard and the Aethernet could be used as a means of communication, and I would prefer if both of them remained in the game.
In my opinion, the corkboard should be used as Deltadream suggested and it was being used these past months, and messages going to the comms as they are written communication, not necessarily announcements.

The TL;DR version is: I am fine with both Corkboard and Aethernet being in the game, and I don't think we need to change anything about how either is used.

[Xander]

Fedup - Yes. Yes you're wrong and this is why I never believed you when you said you read things. I linked you to the thread that says IC announcements go in the Heralds subforum. You then copied the part of the post that said IC announcements go in the Heralds subforum and asked me if it's wrong to put those same IC announcements in the comms subforum. I'm trying very hard to politely point out that IC announcements like the concilium agenda don't belong in the comms forum. Likewise, if everything is posted to one billboard in a space only awakened have access to, why would you then break it down into multiple threads in the comms subforum as you suggest we continue doing? Reuban has the right idea to start one thread along with the Aethernet. If you want to put these IC notes in the same space as the official announcements, then make one thread in the designated space for them.

ReubanBrightwood - I raised this point as a courtesy to you all rather than pursuing potential discipline through an admin. My early experience on site was filled with errors just like anyone else, and I was profoundly grateful to the older players who took the time to link me to the posts and threads that informed my behavior on site. As I said in my first post, I'm not trying to shit on your ideas and I was only trying to clarify something OOC. You don't need to throw your hands up in surrender or accept responsibility for what other people told you to do. If you want to use an IC billboard use it, just post it's contents to The Heralds subforum like the mage guide says to. I'd suggest a second thread and asking Youngblood to sticky it so it's easily accessible.

Xisdor - Some of what your saying (including the lack of need to apologize and my intentions) overlaps with what Reuban said so see that response too. The Aethernet is a global network established by the Libertines and used by all five orders. All mages know what it is and that it's available. Because it's a global network, Phillip doesn't really have a say in who uses it. By extension, my comment about heresy was directed towards those hypothetical libertines beyond Sacramento who maintain the Aethernet to point out that restricting access or manipulating it for political reasons isn't really something that happens. Phillip isn't the first Libertine to play the Diamond's games, and Puck has stories about his own attempts to do the same. As for the consensus you guys reached, I'll be honest with you. I didn't know about it until reading Reuban's and your responses. My point still stands though. How is a returning/new player supposed to find these announcements when the mage guide tells them to look in the heralds subforum but the announcements are posted to the comms subforum? Also it isn't really older player's responsibility to point out if you do something wrong. It's a courtesy to make suggestions and try and set you on the right track. It also doesn't really matter who specifically made the decision because, as I told Reuban, I'm pointing this out as a courtesy to you all rather than a disciplinary action through an admin. I just don't want to hear that players aren't following the announcements/instructions if they aren't aware of where to find them.

Side note? One of the reasons we never split hairs over how information is transferred is because of this scenario. We now have a system that muddies the site's subforums by making an IC medium that doesn't neatly fit into either subforum based on a consensus incoming players won't know about against the instructions they're provided. It would have been just as easy to say "[character] takes notes and writes a letter he leaves at [agreed upon location]" like I did with Emrys back in the day and Reuban is functionally doing now. I honestly think it's a bit asinine that Reuban is taking the initiative to consolidate everything being said and posting it but not getting IC credit because it's actually just everyone posting their contributions to a board.

My honest two cents? Burn the board and stop splitting hairs over how information is disseminated. If Reuban wants to compile everything and post it then say Chambers took notes and passed them along in letters so IC credit goes where it's rightfully due. Same with anyone else who wants to do the same. When someone takes initiative they should get credit for the work that they contribute, and this corkboard is clearly not doing that if everyone is posting about writing on it but Reuban is the only one to compile the information. If other people want to leave IC notes they can stick a post it note on the other person's order HQ front door or leave it in the sanctuary. The board itself doesn't add anything the players didn't already have as options except there's now a board in the sanctuary, and it's taking credit for work Reuban is putting into it. I don't doubt it was a good idea in theory, but the more you explain it to me the more wrong I think it sounds in execution.

And yes, I know I'm not the admin anymore, but it doesn't change the fact that you don't have to be one to ask questions or point something out. If y'all want to go through Youngblood keep tagging him, I was just trying to point out that the concilium agenda shouldn't be in a subforum we've historically assumed things can be stolen/hacked/intercepted in when we have an explicitly labeled place to put it instead.

[Fedup]

A sticky for the billboard in the heralds sounds the best idea to me.
Xander , you said "I never believed you when you said you read things". Just a few things to clear the air:
In my post before, I said that I agreed with you that the agenda should be in the Heralds. I said that I also agreed with you that " A note about this barbecue should have been in the comms subforum since it's explicit function is that kind of communication. " So, it seems to me that we are actually in agreement and there was a miscommunication of some kind, as I didn't suggest the Agenda to go to the Comms.
Second, and most important: You have been in this site for over a decade and you have been there when these things were being worked upon etc, so you have a much better understanding of what those things mean.
I have read those things and more than once. But obviously, my understanding of how the site works and how these rules are implemented, is much more limited than someone with as many years as you, or Orianna or Vincent have on the site. What for you seems foolish like "how can he not understand that messages on a message board about 'meet for drinks!' and 'barbeque: Aurora brings the grill, Corn brings coal and sausages, Chambers brings ribs' go to comms while the Consilium agenda falls under IC announcements thus goes to heralds?!?" for some of us may simply not be too clear. It's not that we didn't read the posts, it is that we don't know them as well as you do. You are used to what these things mean, some of us are not and thus, we ask.
I did not try to contradict you, if you see. I was asking the opinion of a more experienced player.
And PS. I did understand, as mentioned above, that consilium agenda goes to heralds and "meet for drinks?" goes to Comms. It was just an example.


" If y'all want to go through Youngblood keep tagging him, I was just trying to point out that the concilium agenda shouldn't be in a subforum we've historically assumed things can be stolen/hacked/intercepted in when we have an explicitly labeled place to put it instead. "
And we thank you for the context. Nobody was running to the admins over this issue. From what I see, we were just making discussion of how to proceed. In my opinion, your wording as you passed the information came out a bit too strong. Not impolite, just a bit too strong.

" How is a returning/new player supposed to find these announcements when the mage guide tells them to look in the heralds subforum but the announcements are posted to the comms subforum? "
This is a very valid question. I am such a returning player. I checked the Heralds and didn't see anything new. Then I saw ICly when I arrive some talk about a messageboard and notes. I looked again and it was only when ReubanBrightwood directed me to the specific parts of the Comms that I found it.

And here is an example of me not understanding something:
" As for the consensus you guys reached " <== what was that consensus we reached? (Serious question, not trolling)
As far as I am concerned, this is still an ongoing discussion where your suggestion of "put a thread in the heralds for the message board" sounds better than your other suggestion of "ignore the billboard". And that is simply my opinion at the time, and others may agree or disagree.

[ReubanBrightwood]

I'm just going to try and reign this back in a little bit to the issue at hand.

The objection as I understand it: The corkboard needs moving to Heralds.

The solution: Reuban opens A thread in Heralds (When Youngblood has the time it gets made sticky)

Maintience: Reuban will post to it on the first of each month to make clear which notes/announcements are still up.

Xander I understand you are opposed to it, but as everyone else supports having it I am going to go ahead and open that. You can interact with it as much or as little as you want


----------------------------
Spit balling ideas for the opening thread below:
--------------------------------------------


Consilium corkboard

In the Circle of creation a corkboard sits propped against an almost empty bookcase. A smattering of notices and announcements are pinned to its surface as mages use the security of the circle to communicate with each other discreetly, and without needing to divulge personal details. Pens, pins and writing stationary are left in abundance on the bookcase for others to make use of.

1. Remember to @ whoever your note is addressed to. 2. If your responding to a previous note please quote the original in your post. 3. This thread will be update on the first of each month with a list of the still active notices.

--------------------------------------------------

Thoughts? do we think that coveys the appropriate instructions? is this purpose clear?

[Xisdor]

On a completely unrelated topic:

Dear Mage players:

I am writing this to ask if any of you would be interested in joining the currently ongoing DYLF... PRP-storyline with your respective characters, since Philip is currently effectively soloing that storyline. As I understand it, this idea has already been greenlit by the Mage storyteller/admin Youngblood and ReubanBrightwood, who originally had the idea for this story as I gather and is de facto running it. This would be starting in the coming month (April) in the scene to immediately succeed the currently ongoing `DYLF: Philip`s Sanctum`. Especially if Deltadream/Witch is still unable to dedicate time to this site for the moment and hopefully this idea meets their (at least retroactive) approval as well. We could arrange for Philip to somehow meet, call, or research (perhaps in a glimpse) about your characters and then integrate them into the search for the fate of Mothisa Sudarata, at your discretion. Please PM me if you would be interested. And I hope this is the right way to go about this mid-PRP, and the right forum to ask this question. Questions? Comments?

Sincerely,
Xisdor