VtR Questions and Scene Talk

**Killian** · Apr 15th, 2019 08:31 AM

Thank you for taking the time to respond!

1) People SHOULD be playing to what you have on your mini-sheet as public knowledge. It happens sometimes with players missing details and not fully understanding how to cater to a narrative (I've had to add details in my signature to clarify my Changeling PC's demeanor).

I might need to take some time to expand my minisheet info to explain Jack's demeanor since obviously my character sheet isn't public knowledge outside of presence, SL, New ID and the Mask.

Originally posted by Krakenbox:

2) Human error will always be a thing? I take it with a grain of salt and sometimes fire an OOC message if there's a communication issue. We shouldn't dog-pile players for minor things in posts because it creates an obsessive atmosphere where people freeze in scenes, terrified that they missed a tiny detail after reading posts for the 20th time.

I really hope my post didn't come off as an invitation to dog-pile either Lina or Derek. They are fantastic characters/players and they were just the two immediate examples to Jack in what I've been seeing happen more and more through the entire venue. I want to know if there is something I should be changing or adapting to because the heavily social and intelligent part of Jack is the very core of what that character is. If that can be so easily ignored or manipulated by others then there is no enjoyment in playing that type of character. I would be better off making a combat character and roleplaying a socialite.

Originally posted by Krakenbox:

3) For Vampire, a lot of players are buying into the Curse aspect that Kindred are inherently douchey to each other and will actively mistrust and spin narratives to benefit themselves. We don't know how another will play their PC in terms of experience/Clan Curse/Humanity/Blood Potency/etc. Mean Girl Simulator sometimes means a PC will actively lie or press a narrative onto another. This can be a frustrating experience so I encourage people to check in when they are feeling OOC shit on constantly to separate PC motives from OOC bullying.

Where that's true, something I've been noticing is trying to crutch on inner monologues and "Well my character feels that way so to them it is true" to skirt a falsification of what is actually occurring. I'm not entirely sure how to get around that since your inner monologue can't or shouldn't really be able to lie.

Originally posted by Krakenbox:

4) There are a lot of moving pieces with PC interaction versus stats, including narratives built outside of the current scene (PC rapport, PC power dynamics, holistic political considerations, etc). The Storytelling system encourages a blend of RP and Dice, so when I'm confused on something I'll just roll. I actually make a point to ignore when players inject how "honest" or "true" their PC feels about something unless my PC is tossing Empathy or they are tossing Expression/Socialize/Empathy.

I agree, absolutely. I think it is written somewhere even that Vampires inherently lie so subterfuge rolls are not automatic, however, unless you are first hand aware that something isn't true you have to roll to detect the lie.

I bought all of the dots to support Jack being an intellectual ex-lawyer+scientist+bookworm. Continuously being reduced to bitching, whining, making a scene, looking for a bailout isn't how this character is built to come off, but it is all text which is why I try to accent my posts with Jack talking with his hands (a very common persuasion tool), or even stating the tone of his voice (calm, etc.). I'm not intending this to be a witch hunt, but going to individual players when the issue is a lot more chronic doesn't resolve the issue the venue appears to have. Damage is done when someone inner monologues such distortions of reality and it influences how other people in a scene. With a five minute time limit on editing it seemed more prudent to resolving this long term to have a public discussion so we can ALL get on the same page with this.

Apr 15th, 2019 04:47 PM

Okay, so I am going to jump into this conversation and point out a few things.

I would also strongly recommend ALL vampire players read this conversation because it pertains to all of the Vampire game.

I am using the same Numbering that Krakenbox used, not because I disagree with what KB is saying, but because the numbering makes sense.

1. Yes, people *should* be playing what is public knowledge of another character. Whether it be status, or presence, or whatever stat influences the interaction. EVERYONE (including me) is guilty of not paying enough attention to who they are talking too and ignoring the stats or influential skills of the player.
I would strongly encourage people to overcome the "oooo I'm mysterious" trope and share information if they want their characters to be reacted too appropriately.

2. I do not feel that Killian was dogpiling on anyone. He had two similar experiences back to back that he was asking about. If he had left the names of the players/characters out, it wouldn't have taken much time to figure it out. SEVERAL players have made inferring comments about characters tones or how they are responding. Using a completely made up example If Selena says, "Hey Go fuck yourself," Vivian says with conviction. And another player says she is being whiney or crying, that is just completely inaccurate. It is a complete mis-characterization of her actions and tone. I have even seen such mis-characterizations be used against a player (Selena in my made-up example) which is akin to metagaming.
Also, Killian is not the first person to raise this concern to me, he is just the first person to raise it publicly.

I have long said that Social characters get the short shrift because a player can ignore someone's words, but they can't ignore a knife. That is why Social combat was brought into the game several years back. If Social players feel like they are getting ignored, bring it to staff, or call for social combat initiative. It can be used at any time. It's a pain in the ass, but hey, if players are going to ignore the social nature of the game, well, we will gamify it even further.

TLDR, if a Player takes the time to describe how they are acting or speaking, that should be acknowledged and respected. Some players spend A LOT of time writing their posts and constructing posts to make sure they sound correctly.

3. As players of a game about Vampires, especially in accordance with the themes of this game, we should all be aware that we are playing predators. Our characters literally must feed on other living beings to survive. Not only that, but we have monsters living in us that WANTS us to do horrific things to have more control and free reign. NOW, does that mean that all characters are assholes, no it doesn't. Dirt Nap is a prime example of this. He is aware he is a predator but does his best to not be an asshole.

Krakenbox is right, characters tend to spin narratives about things or misrepresent things to others, and that happens from time to time. But there are ways to handle this appropriately. If a character wants to Lie about how another character is acting, they can do that. But that is a choice that should be described. The description shouldn't be an inner monologue trying to change the way other people respond, and then saying nothing out loud.

As far as the "Well my character feels that way so to them it is true," issue. That isn't the way the game works. If that was the case, the persuasion and the various forms of influence wouldn't be a thing, or at least wouldn't be allowed PVP, which they are. Obviously, we have limits to what we will allow with persuasion, but players should NOT be ignoring the persuasiveness of another character’s argument, especially when dice are rolled. If Krieg has a cake and is all like, “My cake!” but Arturo wants some cake he could persuade Krieg to share by rolling dice, Krieg has a roll to respond, and if he fails that roll, then Krieg shares the cake. That is how Persuasion works.

It goes without saying that people should be respectful in their rolls when it comes to throwing dice or trying to influence people, but the dice are there for a reason. There are of course things that are completely against the nature of your character, and those can be taken on a case by case bases, but still, it's a game people. It’s not mind control.

I STRONGLY encourage people to not be in such a hurry to post and if they have questions about a character’s tone and demeanor, they message that player on one of the various options available to do so. One of the benefits of Play by Post is that we have time to be more mindful and thoughtful in our responses.

4. I agree with Krakenbox's approach to use dice as a decider. But the challenge there is when people ignore the dice roll. "I don't like the results of the dice, so I am going to ignore it." But that is not how this works, this is a game, and the dice are part of the game. If a player blatantly ignores the dice roll, it is metagaming, or out and out cheating, and will be dealt with accordingly. If this were DND and someone critically hit one of my characters, I can't just go "Nope, that didn't happen."
As far as ignoring how players feel. I do my best to ignore a character’s inner monologue. Because a character's inner monologue to me doesn't matter. I can't read their mind.

Apr 15th, 2019 06:35 PM

Hey Killian ,

Let me take you through my perspective on that scene, and how your roleplay, backed by your publicly visible dots and social connections that you've made, won the day. I promise you, your dots and your RP were not ignored, despite the fact that my character's inner monologue was not charitable.

Lina came forward as a low-Presence blunt instrument to Jacque. She was absolutely attempting to manipulate Jacque and Arturo into a position where they felt like he had to pay Prestation to get out of trouble. She had a second objective in the scene, which was to wrap things up entirely for the Dragons vs. the Harpy. Please note that you weren't dealing with a low-Social PC. However, though she is not particularly charismatic and is far too direct for her own good, Lina is also a Manipulation 4 character, with a reasonable spread of Social dots, Striking Looks, Status and connections in the Domain.

I also note that Lina had one key weak spot in the scene; her penchant for direct action had gotten her slapped in open Court for the first time, ever. My assessment is that Jacque turned that around, saw the opportunity and hit her in the face with it, attempting to draw the Prince's aggro upon her. Good play.

She saw the clear danger and began a fighting retreat by entirely ignoring Jacque's point and going over his head to undermine Jacque through his Priscus. The Harpy also played skillfully by diffusing things and suggesting that we wash our hands of the issue entirely.

In my view, your character's high social capability as evidenced by his RP and your playing to your dots is why that scene went that way. Though there was salty narration reflective of a character's headspace at that time (angry, recently embarrassed, and fueled by her Daeva Vice), Jacque played the scene well against a social aggressor and judo'd the situation aside due to RP appropriate to his dots. I apologize if that narration made you feel like your character wasn't being respected. You did very good work and the dots/RP took it where it went, which was to your success.

**Killian** · Apr 15th, 2019 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Cross:

Hey Killian ,

Let me take you through my perspective on that scene, and how your roleplay, backed by your publicly visible dots and social connections that you've made, won the day. I promise you, your dots and your RP were not ignored, despite the fact that my character's inner monologue was not charitable.

Lina came forward as a low-Presence blunt instrument to Jacque. She was absolutely attempting to manipulate Jacque and Arturo into a position where they felt like he had to pay Prestation to get out of trouble. She had a second objective in the scene, which was to wrap things up entirely for the Dragons vs. the Harpy. Please note that you weren't dealing with a low-Social PC. However, though she is not particularly charismatic and is far too direct for her own good, Lina is also a Manipulation 4 character, with a reasonable spread of Social dots, Striking Looks, Status and connections in the Domain.

I also note that Lina had one key weak spot in the scene; her penchant for direct action had gotten her slapped in open Court for the first time, ever. My assessment is that Jacque turned that around, saw the opportunity and hit her in the face with it, attempting to draw the Prince's aggro upon her. Good play.

She saw the clear danger and began a fighting retreat by entirely ignoring Jacque's point and going over his head to undermine Jacque through his Priscus. The Harpy also played skillfully by diffusing things and suggesting that we wash our hands of the issue entirely.

In my view, your character's high social capability as evidenced by his RP and your playing to your dots is why that scene went that way. Though there was salty narration reflective of a character's headspace at that time (angry, recently embarrassed, and fueled by her Daeva Vice), Jacque played the scene well against a social aggressor and judo'd the situation aside due to RP appropriate to his dots. I apologize if that narration made you feel like your character wasn't being respected. You did very good work and the dots/RP took it where it went, which was to your success.

Hey, I really appreciate the response and the breakdown here. The point I think I went adrift with my feelings as a player was when Lina's inner monologue described it as making a scene. The Prince was within earshot, and considering the Sheriff and the Harpy had been the subject of drama for the second formal in a row he was certain she was at least listening to the conversation. He faced her to make the offer and then returned to Lina to address her desire for equity. Since an inner thought can't change or lie to itself about what really happened, that is where I had a problem with understanding how I could write my character any differently.

If she saw the danger from Jacque taking the opportunity, I never saw any of that in any of the writing outside of an assumption drawn from Lina taking the Harpy's restated deal. The only thing I did see was how on and on he went (true enough), how he was making a scene and digging and digging. For example, I try to characterize Jack's flaws at times when they are relevant such as Arturo's utter disobedience. As a player I recognize that Arturo has the presence and determination to butt heads with Jack and the continued lack of respect to him has lead to moments of significant cracks in his own composure.

If I only ever see the twisting of words of the mind or out loud then I never truly get to see the real impact of words and conversation which would bring so much more depth to our characters.

**Psychangel** · Oct 25th, 2019 09:52 AM

Youngblood I have a question about wits & empathy rolls to perception of emotions, I never have had to not use the ten again rule. Maybe I was doing it wrong and it just wasn't noticed? Can you verify which way is correct? thanks.

This is the scene in question http://nwod.org/forum/showthread.php...5#post14444075

**Youngblood** · Oct 25th, 2019 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Psychangel:

Youngblood I have a question about wits & empathy rolls to perception of emotions, I never have had to not use the ten again rule. Maybe I was doing it wrong and it just wasn't noticed? Can you verify which way is correct? thanks.

This is the scene in question http://nwod.org/forum/showthread.php...5#post14444075

ultra violent Psychangel Elle

Originally posted by pg 107 VtR:

This weakness does not apply to dice pools involving perception or reaction to surprise, or to the Resolve Attribute

Empathy rolls are skill based perception, so the flaw does not apply.

**Psychangel** · Oct 25th, 2019 03:34 PM

Thank you, Youngblood !! I am glad I have been doing it correctly.

**Psychangel** · Oct 26th, 2019 08:32 AM

BTW: When we get new plots... count me in!!! I am a plot junky!!

**Ruach** · Oct 26th, 2019 10:34 AM

Oh yeah me too please! Dirt Nap hasn't been able to join a plot since he got in on Cross wrapping up (Rhapsody) in February!

Oct 26th, 2019 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Youngblood:

ultra violent Psychangel Elle

Empathy rolls are skill based perception, so the flaw does not apply.

Hello Youngblood , as a matter of politeness and respect for the effort any ST puts in his game I don't tend to second guess ST rulings. Allow me just to politely disagree with you and explain you why and if you still go by your ruling, fine by me :-)

Perception rolls are Wits + Composure. Perception rolls are based on your senses, hearing, smelling, seeing, touching.

Of course one could argue that empathy is tied to the senses etc but in my opinion that's stretching it.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself into someone else's shoes. Senses help you do that the same manner they help anything you do like crafts or stealth. Painting empathy as "perception of emotions" I believe would be too much and open a big precedent - for example would any effect that boost your perception boost your wits + empathy roll?

With that said, some of the rules that might go both ways: Page 39 Nwod rulebook: "Perception: Wits + Composure or a relevant Skill in place of Composure; reflexive action (p. 45)"

Page 45, skill based perception: "Skill-Based Perception During the course of play, you will be called upon frequently to roll dice to see if your character notices something in her vicinity, or that some detail is unusual. The Storyteller can always ask you to roll Wits + Composure to see if your character is aware of her surroundings, but there are other options. Perhaps more indicative of your character’s life experience and training is combining Wits + a relevant Skill to determine if your character spots something amiss. It could be Wits + Survival to realize that a predatory animal lurks nearby in the woods. Or it might be Wits + Academics to notice that the books on a shelf aren’t arranged alphabetically, but by date of publication. Sure, Wits + Composure might accomplish the same result, but if your character has some capability with a Skill that’s more reliable than her Composure alone, the Storyteller might allow you to roll Wits plus that Skill, instead. As a general rule of thumb, the highest of Composure or the Skill is rolled along with Wits. While the stalked character in the example above might be a novice woodsman (Survival 1 ), he could still have decent Composure (say, 3). The latter of the two is rolled because the character’s inherent senses and alertness compensate for his green status in the wilds. Bear in mind that dots in some Skills or under some circumstances simply don’t matter, and Wits + Composure always applies. For example, if a gun lies in the corner of a room, having the Firearms Skill doesn’t help spot it. Anyone who gets a successful Wits + Composure can see it. The Storyteller always has final say on whether a Skill can be combined with Wits to make a perception roll, or if Composure applies"

Moving on to the Empathy skill page 79: This Skill represents your character’s intuition for reading people’s emotions. For some, it’s a matter of observing body language and non-verbal cues. Others employ an extraordinary sense that helps them divine a person’s true mood. As the name implies, Empathy also involves the capacity to understand other people’s views and perspectives, whether your character agrees with those positions or not. This is useful in everything from negotiations and crisis counseling to reading faces in a crowd and looking for potential trouble. If a subject actively conceals his emotions or motives, make a contested roll versus the person’s Wits + Subterfuge + equipment.

Please notice that if you paint Wits + Empathy for emotion reading as skill based perception anyone should be able to roll it with the highest of Composure or Empathy. In my opinion emotion reading is not skill based perception.

EDIT: Adding Psychangel

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