VtR Questions and Scene Talk

**Saber Sloth** · Aug 8th, 2018 11:36 AM

Ok I have a really dumb question. Please forgive me for not understanding this... But how did this scene go from asking for a blood bond (the inquiry part of scene title) to an escalation in violence? I thought the Prince was extremely reasonable and that the two asking for blood bond would go off and scheme to try to get it another way. Again, sorry for the dumb question but I sometimes have trouble understanding the motivations of others when I am reading through scenes and felt it was important to understand this one since it involved the prince. I know my character is not there but hoping to learn how to better understand others for future scenes.

It's not a dumb question!

It's basically a mess of poor impulse control, a little OOC stuff, which was discussed in Discord, and via PMs, and ultimately that Izzy and Takeda are more loyal to each other then the Prince. They were not happy about bonding to the Prince, but accepted it, so they could have their bound. Then it was a cultural thing, Ale didn't want to do Takeda's plan for the hunters, which felt like a slight against her honour, and a sign that there was no trust, even though Alessandra made Takeda her Reeve. Which Izzy wouldn't let stand, she's sworn herself to Takeda, and yes she means first. She has waited years, centuries even to serve the Takeda Clan again so finally finding one and remaining loyal to her is more important to a Prince and to a Domain that the haven't been loyal too for very long. There's always more Domains and more Princes.

What called for Initiative was that the Prince wants to remove Takeda's sword hand. Which is a big not going to happen for Izzy and Takeda. In Izzy's point of view, it would be kinder to simply demand Takeda's death, instead of forcing this dishonour.

I'm actually in awe over how Orianna's been handling Ale as Prince, it's epic. And if I was playing any other character I would be bowing down and trying not to pee myself!

But I am not playing another character, so I'm being as true to Izayoi Goto as I possibly can be, and while yes the direction of In Service was discussed OOC, nothing was said by anyone that lead to a big fat 'NO! Let's think of a new way to handle this'

So it is what it is.

**Psychangel** · Aug 8th, 2018 11:52 AM

Looked at the scene again. OK I get that after the last bit from the Prince said that there would be a reaction but why did the reeve even start the crap about micro managing etc. It is the Prince's duty to make sure that her employees are doing their jobs on the level the Price sees fit. And I agree, Orianna is handling it beautifully IC but I am pretty sure she has made it clear in the past that these types of scenes are a big No for her.

In general, I totally understand Izzy in this scene but not the Reeve. I am also really sad that izzy is so blindly dedicated to the reeve that she will choose her over her prince. IDK, I just thought it sucks that it has to come down to this. Especially since it seem like such a joke in Discord. At this point I have to agree with the Prince that they should be banished actually I feel like they are so dangerous that they should be ashed. The level of disrespect to the Prince is blowing my mind. I still really think they should have simply said they needed to think about the offer and left to replan and regroup.

Like I said, I get Izzy's dedication being cultural, I just don't understand the Reeve's attitude and actions.

**Saber Sloth** · Aug 8th, 2018 12:20 PM

I am not Cayce, nor do I play Takeda, but I have talked to her and read Takeda so this is what I am assuming is her reasoning.

Yes, it's the Prince's prerogative to do as they like, and manage however they wish, but for Takeda being micromanaged is a sign that Prince does not trust in her decisions. If the Prince needs to micromanage, then why is Takeda Reeve?

Yes, this is bucket loads of disrespect, but hasn't Alessandra grown as Prince because of the adversity? We've always known she's a bad ass, but now we know that she's a bad ass Prince too.

And of course there is a cultural element as well, Izzy and Takeda are both Japaneses, so their motivations are coloured through that lense.

And we know that Orianna doesn't like these kinds of scenes, which is why we tried to discuss it all OOC via PMs. And because she has not given explicit consent about the PVP, neither Izzy, nor Takeda will be throwing dice at Alessandra. OOC if Orianna wants no part of it, she can hold her action. ICly, It's the Prince's prerogative to Act or Not Act however she likes.

I know that this will lead to Izzy and Takeda's Death, or flight if we're lucky, which would probably lead to a Blood Hunt. We know that after this Izzy and Takeda are non-playable. The point is to have some fun, roll some dice and see how to baby vamps can match up with a legend like Twist.

**Benji** · Aug 8th, 2018 02:43 PM

ultimately, all vampires are predators and the authority of the Prince is backed up with "I'm stronger than you and willing to prove it if you step out of line" regardless of how it's dressed up with manners and expected behaviors.

Eventually someone pushes back against the threat, and both sides have to decide if they're willing to keep pushing.

In this case, both sides are willing to keep pushing, and eventually it ends up in combat.

Aug 8th, 2018 03:08 PM

To me, the only clear answer is that dramatic exits, when more than the retiring character's life is potentially on the line, should only be done if all players explicitly consent to it. No consent by silence. No partial consent between some but not all of the parties. No consent because they didn't say 'stop'. Actual, clear, unanimous consent.

If no consent is agreed to, there are plenty of ways that don't put PCs at risk. They could sacrifice themselves in a plot. Write a long dramatic confrontation in a glimpse. Work with the ST to do a special final scene. But when the dice are involved, and another character is involved, they must have specifically consented to have their character's life put at risk. No matter how cool it might make that surviving character look or whatever "rule" excuses there may be.

Aug 8th, 2018 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Saber Sloth:

Separate post for Shen!

Yes, all of this could have been handled very differently, both ICly and OOC, and yes your examples show that the scene had been leading to combat long before Initiative was called, which yes, I/Izzy called. I took that final step to ensure that combat was the outcome. We could have decided against physical combat and perhaps rolled for social combat so the possibility of death wasn't on the table, but as with how the scene was ramping up, and how the OOC discussion was going, a confrontation was inevitable.

But if the scene it retconned, and separate resolutions are attempted, I don't know how Izzy or Takeda will react to them. As was said, this was supposed to be a quick, and dramatic way to remove them from play.

There are times when a story simply doesn't work out no matter how it is spun. You, Saber Sloth , are ultimately in control of the character. I advise aborting the arc and taking up my suggestion. Your characters can ride off into another Domain without further disruption.

Originally posted by Benji:

ultimately, all vampires are predators and the authority of the Prince is backed up with "I'm stronger than you and willing to prove it if you step out of line" regardless of how it's dressed up with manners and expected behaviors.

Eventually someone pushes back against the threat, and both sides have to decide if they're willing to keep pushing.

In this case, both sides are willing to keep pushing, and eventually it ends up in combat.

Benji , two Neonates with BP 1 squaring off against the Prince with BP 4, and her right hand lady who has been around since the founding of the site is simply suicide. If you're going to argue the laws of the jungle, a predator with BP 4 scares the hell out of BP 1. This is the equivalent of field mouse challenging a hawk. It's simply going to be eaten.

**Psychangel** · Aug 8th, 2018 03:18 PM

Did Takeda and Goto make fear save rolls in the scene? Should they have if they didn't? This is purely a mechanics question for me at this point because I know I don't always gets mechanics of stuff like that. I also tend to forget that Mable is a scary chick with her blood potency and is like hey wait come back here don't be afraid lol.

Aug 8th, 2018 03:22 PM

Fear saves were not rolled, nor, in my opinion, would it have been necessary. No one fear frenzies entering into Elysium. They role play the reaction to weaker, equal to, and stronger Beasts. My example was just an example. It is in the corebook, it is literally, the nature of the Beast. Vampires with stronger blood see those of weaker blood as prey.

**Saber Sloth** · Aug 8th, 2018 03:31 PM

Yes, I've said yes many, many times already today and elsewhen, that this whole issue could have been handled better ICly and OOC, but it is happening this way. We're just trying to figure out how to make it work.

The issue of consent is why I suggested to simply end the wrangle In Service to an ending with Izzy and Takeda running away. If Orianna or deltadream do no want to be involved in a showdown then they don't have to be, then no new scene will need to be needed.

We can do a glimpse, for our exit if no combat is called, and the Prince can call a Blood Hunt to make sure everyone knows that Izzy and Takeda are bad news, and free game.

As for it being suicide for them to be barking (and really not biting) at the BP 4 Prince and the epicly powerful legend that is Twist, that's...kinda the point.

We wanted to see how basic xp vamps could fair against Twist of omg no how can you have that much xp?! roll dice, have fun, and when our toons die, (because lets be real, did anyone see Twist KO'ing Dirge with two hits? Or ashing Beefy with a whirlwind attack? She's fucking scary.) we just have to wait until vampire unfreezes and we can submit new vampires, and in the mean time we have other characters and ST responsibilities.

**Psychangel** · Aug 8th, 2018 03:32 PM

OK Thanks. I always wondered if that was the case just for court or always.

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