(private) Bookstore coffee and Apologies.

[Pepper]

"Oh, no, trust me, I get you? On both counts, even, but there's downsides to not doing the Union thing when you're also doing the jobs-that-always-get-shat-on thing. Don't let yourself be shit on, ever. Mama taught me that."

Pepper gave a sharp-toothed grin and winked, before looking upwards and tapping her chin as if thinking something out. "That maaay be why I got my first detention before middle school and first Suspension before high school. 'Cause teachers suck and they hate it when you correct them. Plus, the whole like, Oh, you're getting called names and bullied a bit and you hit the kids to get them to shut up? You get suspended, they get a warning." She rolled her eyes and huffed, though knew she'd gotten off better than some other kids. Some of her friends in college related tales of being suspended in kindergarten - not that their behavior had been particularly bad. It was one of those things that tended to highlight those built-in inequalities, really.

But ah! Back to books, and things that didn't get her fired up for a fight. "Yeah, mostly entertainment - Romance and YA. Mostly, because people don't think about those as much, it's easier to get things to stick in their minds. Though the Romance books tends to be a fairly niche thing, because not your classic cis and hetero normative romance novels. Or strictly monogamous." Yeah, that's right. Pepper edited some really interesting stuff.

[Yog-Sothoth]

"Yeah smart woman, that's just unhygienic," Aurum nodded sagely before grinning to the other woman.

"Detention sucks, but I think my teachers were afraid of me or maybe didn't know how to handle me. I kept to myself mostly, read, and did well in school so they let a lot slide I think. However, some friends and I were the cause of the dress code being rewritten a couple of times," she finished with a short laugh. "I say friends, but I wasn't close to any of them."

As the other woman described the focus of the publishing company she nodded in understanding, but hesitated showing some confusion about the romance novels.

"Ah, so young adult stuff huh? Young Adult stuff and some teen stuff is popular even with adults these days. I blame the fact that so many people are poor readers, but then again there are many works that are more engaging in those genre these days. Romance too?" Aurum asked a little uneasily cause from her experience there were some women who were just obsessive about the stubject.

"I read some occasionally, but I don't usually go for the really graphic stuff. I like some of the period works cause I like reading about other times and cultural differences. Also a lot of that is more about the developing of romance and struggling with cultural norms, and not so much about the sex if there is any. CIS? I"m guessing that is like strait stuff? I haven't heard that before. I never really thought about the market for homoeroticism...but now that you mention it there is a significant portion of even classical literature that focuses on the subject and it is getting more mainstream traction. I don't know how I'd feel about the less monogamous stuff though."

Aurum looked a little embarrassed for a change and took a long sip of her drink.

"So did you just kind of fall into that work then or is there an interest in it?" The goth asked carefully.

[Pepper]

"Ah, Dress codes... Dress codes are weird. You ever notice that there's more rules about traditionally female clothes than there are about male clothes? Never liked the idea of them much, but I never intentionally broke or stretched them." Pepper gave a haphazard shrug, but decided against going too into detail about her disciplinary history at the moment.

"Meh. What's fiction for Adults? Great Novels? Classics? Great Gatsby, Catcher in the Rye, 1984, Lord of the Flies, Old Man and the Sea? Old white men winging about Man Pain and all kinda similar and annoying in the density of the writing. I mean, sure, there's stuff by the Bronte sisters and Jane Austin, but they aren't just Classics - They're romance classics." Pepper lead up to it then flashed a grin. "YA is alive, present, and diverse - even behind the scenes with the authors. It's engaging too, and that's why I'm inclined to think it's popular."

Aurum's hesitance about Romance had her raise and eyebrow and nod. She sat back, drinking from her cup as she let Aurum talk, then stayed silent for a little bit longer to organize her thoughts. Last question first, though. "I have two moms and a sperm donor. They decided to raise children together before they could even legally marry. I'm pansexual and panromantic myself, and despite being capable of having feelings for multiple people at a time, I prefer to date people before I sleep with them, which typically means I'm devoted to one person at a time. I should add that most of the characters are enthicities you don't see much in Romance." She gestured to herself at that point. "For me, it's about seeing the aspects of my life - of real life - that always get swept under Fiction's rug written plainly and thoughtfully. It about seeing a happy ending for two women that doesn't require tearing out the last chapter where they get sent to an asylum or married off to dude. It's about reaffirming that I exist."

Now, for the easier one..."Cis is short for cisgender. It just means that you Identify with whatever gender role you were assigned at birth. Doctor says you're a girl and you consider yourself a woman? Cis. Born intersex and doctor's hem and haw and decide you're a boy, and you identify as such? Cis. Transgender is just not identifying with what you were assigned at birth - sometimes trans people don't know how they identify besides 'not that', but they're still trans." She shrugged, then added, "I'm cis."

[Yog-Sothoth]

"Well of course there are more rules for female dress than there are for male dress," Aurum begins casually. "Do you really think the men are going to blame themselves for improper actions or lack of control on their part when they can blame a woman for enticing a man to act badly and thus let themselves off the hook? It is human nature to look for blame in places other than yourself, both sexes do it."

"Literature for adults...that's a good question. It really depends on one's frame of reference. A lot of the stuff considered adult is the stuff that lasts the test of time and becomes iconic or maybe more academic. There are children's stories and young adult stuff that does too, I guess, so it depends on a number of factors. I wouldn't call something like Don Quixote young adult or children's work, it was written in the seventeenth century and is still studied today and considered one of the greatest pieces of literature for developing the style and writing techniques that are used by almost every author today." Aurum took a drink of her coffee and paused for a moment. "It depends on content I guess. That could also just be some of my preference showing through too."

"I hope that you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm skeptical of the whole gender blind movement these days," the goth said cautiously. "I'm not saying that people can't be attracted to same sex, opposite sex, both, or look for fulfillment for various relational needs physical and emotional. I'm just saying that gender does play a role in pretty much all of that at some level whether people admit it or not. People make judgements based on gender all the time and it is basically the first thing, or one of the very first things, we notice about people. How much weight that is given though varies from person to person. However, the fact that we notice it and start classifying people we meet by it, and countless other criteria, means that it plays some role. Now there are people that don't let that gender distinction veto certain emotional leanings when selecting a companion or mate."

Aurum glanced apologetically to Pepper, "I hope I made sense and didn't just totally offend you. I just haven't made up my mind on it yet."

Aurum had never really sat down and thought about her relationships or sexual attractions on an academic level before and she wasn't sure how to really approach it. Pepper had obviously given her own positions lots of thought and felt strongly about them. The moros still looked a little uneasy talking so personally about sexual attraction, but it may not be readily apparent if it is because she doesn't know Pepper well or for other reasons.

"I've never really dated anyone seriously before and don't really get physical," Aurum shrugged dismissively. "I guess I've never really assigned it much priority. Course if I don't start a family at some point I am going to be relentlessly badgered by my parents and grandparents." She finished with a laugh.

[Pepper]

Pepper chuckled darkly at Aurum's assessment of dress codes, nodding just a hair. "I think the Worst thing about it is when a Girl's education is interrupted because the teacher wants her to go to the nurse or home even, for 'breaking' the code when it was probably within the bounds of it anyways. It really does send horrible messages about who's intelligence is valued more."

Ah, adult lit... "I'm personally convinced that designations like YA and Adult are purely arbitrary when is comes to fiction. Especially with the internet and fanfiction being things? And humanity's obsession with sex, romance, and violence." She rolled her eyes hard with that last one, before giving an annoyed twitch of her shoulders.

"Um. I'm kinda confused about were Gender Blind came from? I mean, If it's about me being Pansexual, that's literally I find everyone attractive until they do something gross. If it's about my tangent about Gender Identities... Uh, there's a lot of cultures with more than two gender Identities. Judaism used to have Six genders and associated pronouns. There's a full set of mythology about a holy figure in India that is the Divine guardian of Intersex and people who don't identify as Male or Female. Native Americans have Two Spirit. Then there's the scientific 'what the fuck is sex and gender' approach... I mean, extra chromosomes, only one chromosome, PCOS, Then there's things like hormonal exposure in the womb changing how the fetus develops, and y'know, Intersex people again... Basically, it's just a reminder that what a person self-identifies as trumps your perception of them, and heed and respect how they've chosen to describe that Identity to you."

Yay, rambling info dump! Pepper had done a lot of extra reading on this stuff recently for what she'd been editing, so it was fairly fresh, if a bit disorganized. "No offense taken, though."

"My solution for the badgering is to tell them that if they think they get automatic relationship rights to my potential kid they better recount how many brownie points they've got with me or shut the hell up."

[Yog-Sothoth]

"What education?" Aurum asks with disgust. "It isn't like they are teaching kids anything these days anyway so she wouldn't be missing out on much either way. It's pathetic."

"You see, that's the problem right there," the cybergoth said firmly. "The hijacking of language and terms so no one knows that the fuck is being said anymore. Because gender isn't gender and is different from gender. A person needs to clarify if they are talking biologically, genetically, linguistically, self identity, or how others view a person. Linguistic gender has absolutely nothing to do with sexual identity. Biological gender is pretty cut and dry you either have the plumbing, you don't, or you have a mix. In the case of multiple sets of plumbing it all depends on what set is actually functional cause they both aren't in that instance. Genetically can be different from biological based on chromosome pairs, but you can have two XX and a Y and you're still a male genetically because of the Y chromosome, however, your phenotype can be male, female, or intersex. It all depends on the difference between genetics and phenotype."

Aurum frowned not sure how this conversation got to this point. I mean who comes to a coffee shop to talk about topics like this. She sighed slightly before continuing.

"Self identity I find to be a contradictory and interesting topic. If I went around running down the street making honking noises and holding flashlights, does that make me a car? I may even believe I'm pulling off a very good impression of being a car with convincing noises and by obeying the traffic signals and rules of the road. Does that make me a car if I believe strongly enough that I'm a car? If every other person sees me as a nut job or maybe just childish for playing pretend does that mean I'm no longer a car if I was one? If everyone else validates my self identity as a car does that then make me a car? Am I just in need of a good talking to or maybe even psychological therapy? I argue that I would be sent to someone for help in that case. So why is it if I dress up like a man, but have all the parts of a female, I have to be called a man by everyone else because I believe strongly enough that I am one? It is something to think about. What is reality? what is fiction? Personally if everything around us is all fiction why does it matter anyway?"

"The badgering doesn't really bother me," Aurum laughed honestly. "They mean well."

[Pepper]

Pepper blinked and jerked back at Aurum's disgust towards education. "What? That - I'm not sure how to process that. I mean, American schools aren't nearly on the level with like, Finnish schools? But in no way does that mean you should give up on learning or trying to learn or unlearning prejudices. That's like... taking the whole idea of being told 'you're a distraction to the pupils we value more' and just... giving up." Which seemed especially warped considering that Aurum was clearly not bereft of thinking opportunities.

Then again, that bit about too many definitions of gender had Pepper scowling hardcore. And then Aurum took it a step further. "Did - Did you really just do that? Go off on the most ridiculous comparison possible of real people and paint the whole thing as some silly question about reality? I mean, for starters? Transgender people do have to go psychiatrist in order to have access to hormones or surgery, which the psychiatrist can deny them, or worse send them to one of those abusive gender correction camps." Pepper paused for breath, and to chose what she wanted to address with the wrongness of what she just heard. Her burrows furrowed sharply. She shook her head.

"You know what? There is way too much I want to say, so I'll skip to the end. I've done that before, and I've seen the look of burning bridges on close friends' faces as I turned their life experiences into hypothetical. Empathy tells me it's one of the bitchiest moves I've ever done." She worked her jaw and added, "And I just told you a few minutes ago why this stuff was important to me - maybe not as personally as sexuality - but it's still meaningful to me. And you turned it into a mockery so you could what? Ask the same questions about reality that everyone does when lying, fiction or multiverses comes up?" Pepper reached for her briefcase and shifted forward in her seat.

She was watching Aurum's face as she said this, and it'd be the other woman's emotional reaction that would determine if she stayed or left.

  2suxx for reading Aurum

Date		Action		Roll		Result
2014-08-22 23:04:49		Pepper rolls 6 to Watching Aurrum's reaction (Wits+Empathy) (10 Again)		2, 3, 4, 1, 10, 9, 6		2 successes

[Yog-Sothoth]

Aurum didn't try to hide her confusion and surprise at the other woman's reaction her attempt at conversation. She had been trying to make a biting remark that was funny about the state of the education system with today's youth and it had apparently fell flat on its face when Pepper started ripping her to shreds.

As the verbal tongue lashing continued it only got increasingly worse and Aurum's reaction changed to one of disbelief. She could almost not understand the vehement response from the other woman. Damn, you'd think I just killed her fucking dog and raped her family. Where did that come from?

"Whoa there," Aurum said holding up her hands in a manner you might try to calm a wild beast. "First off I didn't say it wasn't possible to get a good education in this country. But when you have kids that can't even point to their own damn state on a map, write their thoughts out in complete sentences, or even know what a fucking paragraph is after 12 years then I think there is a problem there. The state of inner city black schools in many cities is downright dangerous and it can be next to impossible for them to get a good education in some of them without moving to a different school district. I was trying to combine a biting commentary with humor, I guess my sense of humor is darker than most...sorry."

"Secondly, I was trying to calmly and rationally have a pleasant conversation about the nature of the issue of gender identity. Abusive gender correction camps? Is it abusive to help people come to terms with things they can't change or to find the underlying cause for their condition or even explore their feelings? There are normal phases of child development that people may be going through and then later grow out of. There are many people that do identify themselves differently than their assigned birth gender in their teen years, but grow out of it when they hit adulthood...and before you rip me apart for that I'm not saying they are being childish. I'm just saying that it is a phase that some people go through and not everyone that goes through that and finds themselves residing there permanently. Just like some people experiment with same sex attraction in college or high school only to decide it isn't for them. None of that is wrong it just means that people are different and have different emotions and feelings."

Aurum stopped for a moment not sure if this was even a topic that Pepper could talk about with someone who may not see the situation exactly as she does. In fact Aurum had seen religious fanatics less passionate about their faith. It seemed to the cybergoth that the other woman's views bordered on irrational and religious devotion especially defending views that she didn't even share. She just told me she is female and identifies as female why the hell is she defending this so strongly?

"Look, I understand that you feel strongly about this. This may not be a topic that we should talk about if we can't calmly and rationally discuss points of view that may not align with our own. This might not be a topic that people can distance themselves from. I can usually talk about sensitive topics that I believe strongly about, but listen to what others have to say and then calmly discuss why I don't agree with that and let them respond. Not everyone thinks like I do and that's okay and diversity can be interesting. People can get passionate about certain subjects, even me so I say it may be best to avoid this topic or maybe call it a day and avoid this subject in the future."

[Pepper]

Pepper stood, but listened as Aurum talked, shaking her had at certain points. At the end of everything, Pepper's lips were pressed tightly as she walked three steps away then turned back and sat down again, if in a manner that said she was going to leave in a moment regardless.

When she spoke, her voice was flatter, calmer, and barely audible. Emotions were still evident by her hands constantly smoothing her pants towards her knees, but they were well-reigned in. "Firstly? I wasn't exaggerating by calling those camps abusive. Their methods for 'convincing' people that they can't change their gender often employ significant amounts of fear, isolation, and physical pain. Secondly, Although I can choose to be very calm for such discussions, I choose not to, for good reason. You should google 'Devils advocate with people's lives' - there's a few articles I've read online that do a far better job of explaining what's wrong with it - with what you just tried to do - then I can right now."

Pepper stood up again. "Mostly, I'm just disappointed right now, I'd be hypocrite if i was actively furious. I was pretty into talking to you, but it seems you've got more wool over your eyes than you think, and I'm in no emotional state right now to walk you through talking it off. See you around, I guess." She gave a little parting wave, then headed for the door.

Pepper leaves the thread.

[Yog-Sothoth]

"Well pardon the fuck out of me for trying to wing a polite conversation on a topic to someone who has spent a lot more time on than I have," Aurum called out to the retreating form. She was getting irritated now and was glad to see that the other person had chosen to end the conversation or she would have left her herself.

Staying in her seat the goth took a long drink from her coffee beverage. Then she slamed the bottle down harder than needed on the table and muttered loudly to herself as Pepper had already left.

"Dumb cunt, maybe next time try explaining your weird ass views before getting furious at people that don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

If there was one thing Aurum couldn't stand it was a dogmatic attitude that only got offended instead of offering substance, logic, or even refused to openly discuss a view that may not be the same as their own.

"Bitch..."