Philosophical sparring

[Aileen McFarlane]

True to her word, Aïleen had called back Ms Lawrence, and they had agreed to a rendezvous at the Fox and Goose Public House, where such discussions were already hosted at times.

Arriving a quarter before midnight, the Mekhet managed to get into a relatively quiet corner, and waited for the Haunt to arrive, mentally rehearsing her few points. How do philosophy and politics mesh ? She had ordered a light beer that was left mostly untouched in front of her, and looked around to hail the other woman, lest she would be overlooked. She was easy to gloss over, and it usually suited her just fine, but tonight wouldn't do.

[Brenn Lawrence]

Brenn arrived at the Fox and Goose dressed all in black, a beret with a silver pin pulled low on her head, keeping a partially obscuring curtain of greasy locks hanging over her face. She hadn't been able to prepare as well as she would have liked to, but this was to be all in fun and the Haunt was confident she would be able to hold her own in this test of intellect. She was a bit disappointed that they wouldn't be able to directly discuss the Kindred but that would just add to the challenge.

The haunt clomped around the pub peering out at the assembled kine, looking for Aileen, her excitement for the evening of discussion making her a bit careless with her search. She walked right past the Supplicant of Terror before she was flagged down.

"Ah! Good evening Miss McFarlane!" Brenn exclaimed, taking the seat opposite Aileen. "Now, I have two questions for you. First, would you be offended if I called you Light? I understand if that would be a bother. And second, is there any particular format you wished to follow this evening, or shall we simply rap and converse."

[Aileen McFarlane]

While it was easy to overlook Aïleen, it wasn't so for the Haunt. She had the bearing of a firebrand, which should heat up tonight's debate. When Brenn had sat, the Mekhet replied in earnest "Good evening, Ms Lawrence. And no, I wouldn't. It's the name I've been given, after all..." and she shrugged, wondering what the Nosferatu meant. The question of her name had been something of a contention bone with Ms Keyes, after all...

"As for the debate... well, for it to be a debate, we would have to take two opposites stance, to start with !" and she smiled, for it seemed to her they already had very close opinions.

[Brenn Lawrence]

"Your right, contention is rather important for a debate, isn't it?" Brenn said with a visceral grin. "Very well then, Light MacFarlane, what stance do you favor on this Eve? You did arrive first so the advantage of favored ground should be yours."

[Aileen McFarlane]

It was unusual for Aïleen to use her brain at full capacity, and she looked forward to it, for a change. With a smile, she answered. "I will take the stance that philosophy is useless to a politician.", but her smile left little doubt that she didn't adhere to it. Debate for debate's sake.

[Brenn Lawrence]

"Ah, cutting the quick I see. Very well, I shall answer thusly," Brenn replied, relaxing into her chair. She thought for a moment and then splayed her hands out and she began.

"Philosophy is a discipline that allows us to examine our experiences in the world and create mental constructs, like morals, that we use to enhance our existence. Because society, or the government more specifically, uses those mental contructs to form laws...and I'll go one further, to also form itself, then that would indicate that a politician that didn't philosophize would be acting in a limited capacity of understanding."

OOC

Sorry for the delay! I am now returned!

[Aileen McFarlane]

OOC

No problem at all Welcome back

Aïleen nodded as she listened to the Haunt's words, commiting them, and their meaning, the structure of the sentence, the underlying truths, to memory. She kept silent even after Brenn had finished, and smiled as she answered.

"Your point is actually two of them - if not three - and they can all be rebuked. Please allow me to correct you." The Mekhet was no teacher, but her analytical mind could be put to good use at times like this.

"One" and she raised a finger "Philosophy allows us to examine our experiences, and create mental constructs. It is mostly true, except that nowadays there are nearly no more new mental constructs created. People tend to lazily take those they are handed, which is counterproductive. But let's say we're talking about what philosophy should be, and not what it is..." she paused for effect.

"Even then, you say it is used to enhance our existence. I beg to differ. To enhance, you say ? It provides no adrenaline, no heightened senses, not even a happier life since it usually deals with very abstract mental constructs. At best, it brings headaches. How can that be an enhancement, please tell me ?" and she laughed.

"Two, society uses those mental constructs to form laws... please remind me when was the last time you heard a politician quote Hegel or Kant as the basis for a law ? More often than not, it's the latest headline that pushes them, not mortals dead centuries ago..." this time, Aïleen didn't pause, but went on to push her last argument forward.

"A politician that didn't philosophize would be acting in a limited capacity ? Well, for that, you would need to prove how philosophy actually enhances life. But even discarding this, what a politician does his herding uneducated people, driven by their instincts more than anything else. How could he be limited if he doesn't use philosophy ? You could even say that philosophy widens the gap between he and those he has to rule over, thus being an hindrance more than anything else." and she stopped her first rebuke at that, nodding with a smile to Brenn that the field was now all hers.

Surely the debate wouldn't be over just yet, right ? Though they could always try to have fun on another one, should there be need. The night was still young, after all.

[Brenn Lawrence]

Brenn listened intently to Aileen, her eyes narrowing as she began to formulate her rebuttal. The Shadow was proving to be an excellent opponent and though Brenn didn't feel outmatched her confidence in victory was no longer complete, and that made the evening more interesting.

"Unfortunately, Light McFarlane, I shan't take your corrections just yet," she returned, eyes crinkling with her smile. "After all, I did say that a politician that didn't philosophize would act with a limited understanding, not just with limited ability, though I will simplify things and say that in this case the two are one and the same. You see, a politician that didn't philosophize couldn't understand the true purpose of a law, or even the concept and purpose of Law itself, and thus they would be limited in their ability to defend, adapt, and utilize any law. Thus, because governments are bodies of laws, a politician limited in the application of law would be limited in their ability to influence government, and a politician limited in their ability to influence the government is by definition ineffective. It doesn't matter if a politician doesn't acknowledge that a Law is a mental construct; it won't change the fact that a law is a mental construct. When someone breaks a law they remain unaffected until other people enforce that construct and make it reality. Someone sentenced to time in prison doesn't go to prison until someone makes that a reality and enforces said reality. A politician that understood this would be able to act more effectively because they would understand the true purpose of their actions and the nature of what they created..."

The haunt broke off then, deciding it would be wise to hear Aileen's response before saying more. If there were huge faults in her argument then her effort would be better spent exploring a new direction than hammering at the same line of thinking.

[Aileen McFarlane]

Aïleen kept on listening in silence, which had been so far her prefered place in the Domain. But tonight was much more relaxed, and she enjoyed the wits-war. Brenn was pushing forward with her first argument, and the rebuttal was as easy as the first one had been.

"While one can only agree that a law is a mental construct, I still fail to see how a politician lacking in the philosophy department could be ineffective. You don't need to understand the true nature of something to use it to the utmost, and laws are no different. I don't understand how a car works, for instance, but I can still push it to its speed limit. You could even say that focusing on using the law is what politicians should do, not on what it is on the conceptual level. After all, even they have to cope with a limited time a day, so useless philosophy, really..." abd she smirked at the Haunt with that reply.

[Brenn Lawrence]

Brenn floundered for a minute, trying to think of a way to dismiss the car example, and then realized she was focusing on the wrong objective in the argument. Which was a bit ironic considering her point about knowing the true purpose of actions, but Brenn wasn't ashamed. One wasn't a fool if they recognized and worked to rectify their mistakes. She didn't have to prove that it was useful beyond doubt, she just had to prove that it wasn't useless, and this was something she could do. She just had to find a bit more foundation first.

"Before I respond, do you mind if I ask your opinion on what the purpose, or function, of government is?" The haunt relayed, her voice inquisitive.