A Quiet Chat

Jul 24th, 2013 03:53 AM

Teo shook his head. "The god himself, crafted from 4 deities for some time. Erra, god of fiery destruction, she is Babylonian. Reshep, semetic god, he was god of plague and burning. The Irra, similar to Erra but goes back to an Indian god. And Cretecian god, animals and healing. He was the last edition." Teo explained resisting the urge to tick off fingers. "My question is, when Crone invoke Greek pantheon and Apollo..which one of those is actually listening to the prayers? And the is supplicant aware the one answering isn't who is necessarily intended?" The true heart as to why Teodor hated the Crone. Only the Almighty know who was actually listening to the prayers.

**Swift** · Jul 24th, 2013 11:22 AM

Dr. Swift paused for a moment, blinking. Ah.

He had encountered this before, not specifically with the beliefs of the Crone, but with the Church. And while Brother Raluca was a Dragon, not one of the Sanctified, he was a monk, and quite obviously still religious.

"I begin to see," he replies slowly. "And I will address your question at the very least, but I have a question for you as well, Brother Raluca. This coversation has the potential to be very long, and very derisive. Are you prepared to have a civilized discussion on the matter, or would you prefer to simply agree that we will disagree on this point?"

He let's the monk consider as he gives his own answer. "And to answer your question I must speak to two parts. The first is this so called 'construction.' That phrase assumes intent. You are, of course, correct that Apollo as a concept to the Hellenistic Greeks was not the first or only iteration of the deity. But to link him to four specific previous deities is also folly. It is impossible to say exactly how the Greek's sun god became what we think of him today, and even that is probably not what he was then. Cultures don't 'construct' gods willfully - at least most of the time - but rather these deities evolve to fit their needs. It is true there are similarities but correlation is not causation. And he is not the only one. The Egyptian god of the Sun went through several iterations and was blended with many different deities creating Ra, Re, Amon, Amon-Ra, Amon-Re, and," he chuckles as he nods and says, "Apollo-Ra, this one deliberately created to blend Apollo and Ra for the Ptolemaic Egyptians. Even the Christian gods have such roots, linking Christ to Mythras of the Romans and God the Father to Zarathustra of Zoroastrianism."

He pauses a moment, knowing such a statement might trigger some outburst from the Monk. Suddenly, Dr. Swift is quiet glad he chose to ask for this meeting in Elysium. Hopefully it would prevent the monk from doing anything rash. But he had to see, because the next part of his answer might be even more upsetting to a devout mono-theist.

"Truthfully," he continues, "you ask, 'Who answers?' and to that I must reply, 'no one, or both.' The Crone appears to many as a pagan belief system, and by both ancient and modern definitions - that is to say 'from the country' or 'not Judeo-Islamic-Christian' - that may be correct. But, while the Circle uses several old manifestations of deity as a focus, it does not teach that power comes from these, but rather from within. Christianity has a similar belief system, Gnosticism. Certainly these entities may exist and may answer our prayers and sacrifices, but they are not the Crone."

Was that exactly Crone doctrine? Well, no, but not because Dr. Swift's thoughts were terribly off the mark, but because the Crone didn't really have doctrine. At least, not in the sense that most Sanctified and others who were raised within Christian belief system expected. Each individual, each coeterie, and each Circle was left to find their own beliefs. The Circle did believe in the power of the Blood, that the divine resided in the Vitae. Each Kindred bore Vitae within them, powered their gifts of the Blood with Vitae, and was themselves a miracle of Vitae. Vitae powered sacrifice and provided power beyond mortal ken. So, in a very real sense, each of the Kindred carried the Divine within.

Jul 25th, 2013 11:46 PM

Teodor listened patiently and with interest. For one reason the man was an archeologist by trade and either deliberately or accidentally would give up some token of history. The Apollo-Ra being one of them. Teo nodded in recognition of potential slight toward the Almighty but it was not something he would pounce upon. During his own studies he had read about Zoroastrianism, grappled with and then set aside.

The last tidbit made Teo want to leap up and shout YOU SEE was the statement that there were entities that could and did answer prayers. But he controlled himself. "Your last point doctor. There are things that do listen and do answer. Tell me, what happens if one attracts an entity and it decides to form an unlooked for or unwanted attachment with the invoker? Or perhaps during an ecstatic ritual or trace it decides it would like to walk in the invoker's form for time? And please, let us move beyond demons. We both know that there are other...entities that linger at and beyond the perception of most." Not that demons were not something to be worried about. But he had to push Swift past the obvious and actually think of the danger he was putting himself in.

**Swift** · Jul 25th, 2013 11:58 PM

"You mean like the creature that climbs into our dead bodies with the blood?" Being a Gangrel gave Swift a rather unique outlook on the nature of the beast. "But to address your concerns in another viewpoint, that is one purpose of the Circle. We watch and care for each other." He pauses then looks the Monk straight into the eyes. Dr. Swift wants to make certain he has the other man's attention and that he cannot dodge the next question. "And how, might I ask, are the prayers directed toward your deity any different? Why would they not be answered by some other entity in the exact same way?"

Jul 26th, 2013 12:23 AM

"I do not fear that possibility. Hypocrisy perhaps?" a touch of smile appears for a moment. "To my knowledge there is no tradition or contigency for someone praying to Jesus Christ having to contend with possibility that prayers lead to unwanted attentions. Not even among the Sanctified. Or perhaps another way...I am not aware of any amount of incidents that force Christians to worry about having to plan such contingents." Gabriel didn't take one's body for a ride when you prayed. Gabriel simply appeared. All it took was one Crone and a spirit that didn't want to go back to where it belonged and by the time anyone was aware of the problem a breach of the Masquerade could well be underway.

**Swift** · Jul 26th, 2013 12:33 AM

Dr. Swift nods, more to himself, seeing the ignorance now. "Ah, then I would say to you that I am unaware of any incidents that force pagans of most varieties to worry about having to plan such contigencies either. Modern Wiccans do not worry about such things unless they are attempting to contact entities for the purpose, and then they are still not worried. Ancient Romans did not worry about being randomly possessed by Jupiter or by Minerva either. Typically, such entities only latch on to those looking for them, or looking for power for purely selfish and clearly malicious purposes. Something about the intent draws them."

He pauses considering the table for a moment. He is very tempted to voice the other possibility that came to mind. That the god they pray to doesn't exist, and the lack of such a concern is a byproduct of the fact that the prayers are impotent. But so far the Mekhet had been relatively civil. Swift would return the favor.

Instead he suggests, "Besides, there are plenty of stories of Christians being possessed and ridden by all manner of entities, whether they're demonic or simple spirits. After all, a normal Kine parishioner or even priest may not be able to tell the difference. Why, if this were not the case, would Catholicism have such a strong tradition of exorcism?"

Jul 26th, 2013 01:25 AM

A spirited defense of a non-hazard. How blind faith makes one. Although he was not blind himself not to reflect on pulling splinters instead of beams. "Typically. But vitae is not Roman bull nor wiccan incense. It is concentrated and potent, for more likely to grab and hold an entity's attention. Can of spam verses boar to bear?" he arches an eyebrow slightly, hoping the impromptu analogy made sense. And the exception to the rule was 'a dozy' as the Americans say in this case.

"Oh you are quite correct about possession and exorcism. I would be along first to help render an exorcism. The difference I would point out again is that while possessions do occur, I am not aware of it happening during prayer. People hearing voices or in the confusion of sleep being seized or tricked yes, but not as consequence of prayer." Teo suddenly felt sadness creep into him. He did not have the words to convince man. A failing on the monk's part. Then again he supposed it spoke to the strength of man's character. A bless and a curse.

**Swift** · Jul 26th, 2013 01:48 AM

Dr. Swift was, as an anthropologist, a student of culture. And as an archaeologist he had a particular affinity for the artifacts of culture. Raluca was often seen wearing a Cassock, and Dr. Swift somehow doubted he was a Luthran or an Anglican. Ruling out those faiths left only a handful, all of which believed in a phenomenon known as transsubstantiation - that the wine and bread presented during the Eucharist were actually literally transformed as well as figuratively into the body and blood of Christ.

"You say these.....possessions, have more to do with the power of the Vitae as a sacrifice. That it is more potent than what the Kine offer, and thus attracts these entities, even though the penitent does not seek their possession." He gestures to one side with his hand. "As we have already established that these pagan faiths did not seek such things directly in most circumstances."

Raising the other hand out to the other side he questions. "Then, is it your belief that the blood of the Kindred is more potent, more alluring then the very blood of Christ? The Eucharist is a blood offering just as our sacrifices are, and I do believe there are many, many more of those per day than ours per night. And many more faithful praying at this sacrifice. If it is such a danger to one to pray with a potent offering, why are these not all possessed?"

He stares the question at the monk. Say it, he thinks wondering if Raluca might actually hear his thoughts. Tell me your god is benevolent, that he is all powerful, all knowing, and protects his sheep. That the gods of the ancients are false gods. Tell me my faith is inferior to yours, that my Circle is mislead. Speak the truth of your intolerance. Or bury it in truth.

Jul 26th, 2013 07:30 PM

This was one of those instances he supposed where the person presumed blind faith on the Dragon's part instead of faith built upon knowledge. The monk had more understanding of the metaphysical than the gangrel did clearly. The Lord is all powerful to be sure but for the most part he chooses to operate within the rules he has laid down for Creation.

"Finer description would be that when one prays and makes offerings to one deity that is derived from another one, you run the risk of attracting the source entity. When one adds something as rich in metaphysical power as vitae you are much more tempting or attractive." Teo raises his hand slightly. "And I would agree that we have established the typical but also the recognition of the possibility of other entities answering, desired or not. The recognition and planning for the concern is acknowledgment of it occurring." Teo nodded, added his add-em to avoid the man from trying to box him in.

Teo was not entirely sure which he should be more, angered or amused at the crone. More amused at the moment. The monk rests his elbows on his chair's armrests and inter-laces his fingers, his thumbs point back at himself. “I would say dindred vitae is nothing in comparison to any aspect of Christ.” Teo answers calmly. To assert other wise would be laughable in the extreme. “However your follow up statement and question are invalid because they do not factor in the transactional different between your worship and mine.” Teo gestures at Swift and then to himself before return to its resting position. “By our mutual agreement Circle ritual is usually to the Crone but as the Crone or aspects there in are found in multiple faiths, the one answering is not always the one intended.” He hoped that was an accurate summation they could agree upon. “This transaction does not require the supplicant to have previously attained power from that deity or entity to carry out the ritual to the deity or entity.” It was a statement but said with just a touch inference that indicated Teo was open to correction.

“In contrast the Eucharist is completely dependent upon the previous investment of power by the Lord. The priest must have been granted power prior to the Mass which he then uses to preform the transubstantiation. That power flows through the Eucharist sacrifice and back up to the Lord who previously bestowed it. It is closed loop, not an exchange. The required preexisting relationship and the loop precludes third parties from interrupting or abusing the process.” The monk could feel his mood shifting. Anger and irritation was fading replaced with more sadness at not having the words to convince the Crone but also thankfulness for the Lord putting him at this table at this night.

“As to your follow up statement and question about the how often the Eucharist occurs, Transubstantiation only occurs in astronomically rare instances. This is because there is no 'Line of Melchizedek' which priests claim power and authority to preform the Eucharist or many of their priestly stations. Melchizedek was created and inserted into Abraham's story to justify subsequent doctrines. In part to exclude women from authority in the early Church. Quite laughable really, as it assumes the Lord puts the gender in higher importance rather than the individual. But I am off topic.” he gesture in apology. “Enoch clearly states that Man was not meant to wield such power on that scale. The only time he is allowed is when God directly bestows such power on the individual, whether they are willing or not. And that power is given for finite amount of time. So I will say in the exceptional rare instance when Transubstantiation does occur, the blood of Christ is more powerful than kindred vitae. But as it occurs as a closed loop, not a transaction is not equivalent or subject to threat of possession.”

**Swift** · Jul 26th, 2013 11:11 PM

As Raluca speaks, Dr. Swift experiences one of those perfect moments. He listens to the man's words, and then hears the meaning behind those words - the things Raluca was trying to say but could not; things Raluca himself may not even know he is saying. It is one of those crystalline moments when suddenly, it all makes perfect sense, and in that clarity, one may even see the Divine. In Raluca, Dr. Swift finds what he had been searching for on the Solsitce. He hears the words of truth spoken from the mouth of a vessel possessed of the Spirit.

It begins slowly. Raluca speaks of constructed gods, of deities derived from other deities. How these may very well be entities other than what their adherents see. And he speaks as if his own god - the Christian god - is somehow different than all these others. He does this despite Dr. Swift's point about Zarathustra and about Mythras. The first glimmer occurs. He's not listening. He does not want to hear.

Then Raluca answers the question given to him, and admits that the transsubstantiated blood of his Christ would obviously be more compelling and offering than Vitae. Then he simply decides to declare the doctors inquiries invalid, backed up by a ludicrous statement and insisting that Swift agreed to the statement. Not once did I say whom my prayers are meant for. Nor did we once discuss the 'usual' worship of the Circle. How can the Circle have a 'usual' when each coeterie, each circle, and each region has its own beliefs and practices? We are decentralized as the Pagan faiths of old. Dr. Swift almost interrupts at this point, outraged that the man is putting words in his mouth, but he refrains. Instead he places his face in his palm, not caring if Raluca sees. The next piece falls into place. He hears only what he wants to hear. He believes he knows the secrets of other covenants intimately, never once wondering if perhaps the secrets he knows are simply lies they want him to know. He is a Dragon, and he still believes this.

Dr. Swift anticipates Raluca's end, assuming at the very least the man would adhere to the unspoken rules. One answer, one question. Civilized discussion on one topic without the need for strict debate structure. Any scholar knew and cherished Socrates' own method. But then Raluca continues to speak. He never says outright that this Christian god is superior. No, he simply assumes it and by implication, assumes all accept it. And who's to say whatever granted this power is the god they think it to be? The man rambles on about "pre-existing" relationships as if the priests and priestesses of other gods do not dedicate themselves to their chosen deities. And the moment crystallizes. He knows nothing about any faith but his own. He simply assumes the worst, and believes the lies of the Kine. He is not only deceived by himself, and by the machinations of Kindred, but by the lies of the Kine.

As his frustration builds Dr. Swift grips the edge of the table and squeezes. It takes all of his considerable control not to give into the beasts eager images of ash and gore where once there was hypocrisy and intolerance. Instead he waits for his turn. And the man keeps talking. He says something that finally catches Dr. Swift's attention. 'Transubstantiation only occurs in astronomically rare instances'. Dr. Swift's head snaps up. That one statement was, in and of itself, heresy. The Church believed in its own dogma that each and every time a priest in the observance of Mass and in the sanctity of a consecrated church performed the ritual of the Eucharist, a literal transformation occurred. Every Sunday, hundreds of thousands of priests performed this ritual, many of them several times, and in front of a total of over a billion faithful. That was anything but 'astronomically rare'. And another piece clicks, the pattern almost complete. He doesn't even know his own faith. He claims to be a monk, but he doesn't know basic Dogma!

Raluca then does what every freshmen theology major does at least once. He continues to ramble bringing in the most esoteric and obscure tidbits of information. Students did it when they felt cornered, but couldn't bear to admit defeat. They did it to save face, and in the desperate hope that their opponent wouldn't know what they were talking about. And ultimately, it proved they were outside of their comfort zone, out of their depth. And it all came together. He's scared. He can't answer everything, and his faith doesn't have answers. And it scares him. It scares him so badly that he deludes himself into thinking he knows more than everyone else. He makes up the answers or reads something somewhere, and they comfort him. So he doesn't question. He's stuck in a web of his own devising. And he doesn't even realize it.

Part of Dr. Swift was furious. Furious that this man would dare judge him, that he would put words in Swift's mouth, and that he would presume the authority of a scholar when he clearly did not possess it. But, with great effort, Dr. Swift sets that aside. He had answers and further questions for the man, but they would do no good. He would not listen to the answers Swift offered because he didn't want to hear them. He would not consider the questions because he was afraid of what the answers might mean. And, most importantly. Dr. Swift had not come here to discuss philosophy and theology. He had perhaps forgotten that for a time, but his perfect moment had reminded him.

Unlike Raluca, Dr. Swift did not care what the other man thought or believed, so long as it did not cause him undue inconvenience or harm. All he had wanted from this evening was to find out if he had accidentally slighted the man, and if so to make up for it. Clearly Raluca felt slighted, but not by any action of Swift's - perhaps a perceived action, but in truth Dr. Swift had never summoned or dealt with a spiritual entity in his entire existence - but simply because Dr. Swift dared to believe something different than Raluca.

Finally, when the other man had exhausted himself, Dr. Swift speaks. Raising a single hand - the one that had briefly hid his own face, he says simply. "You never answered my first question, if you were prepared for a civilized discussion. I am afraid you may have deceived yourself into believing I was here because I either wished to be swayed by your beliefs, or change them. I wish neither."

Dr. Swift lowers his hand, his voice calm, but bearing a distinct note of tension in it. "My purpose here was to discover if I had offended you. Clearly, I have. Though not by specific action, but rather by system of belief, and because you believe my religious practices somehow endanger you. So, let me simplify this for you. If you believe I have, through belief, practice, or action, violated the Laws of the Domain or brought significant danger of harm to the Domain, by all means speak to the Reeve. He is, after all, a Sanctified man as well as an officer of the Domain. I have no doubt he will listen to your fears." Dr. Swift suppresses a wry smile at the thought of what Dillon might have to say to this man on the subject.

"If, on the other hand," Dr. Swift continues, "You feel you cannot work with me because of my beliefs. That is your prerogative. Tell me know and I will ask the Reeve to remove you from our investigation and to avoid placing us together in the future. Or you can ask him yourself when you tell him how dangerous I am." The last sentence is delivered with a definite wry note and a building sense of irritation.

Dr. Swift, now fully certain his beast will not be taking part lets some of his frustration show. "If, by some miracle of your gods or mine, you actually want to learn something about my beliefs rather than make wild assumptions and judgments, then please come by the Temple and I will instruct you. I am not asking you to convert, and I am not asking you to believe." As more of his irritation enters Dr. Swift's voice, his volume begins to grow a bit louder. He raises a hand to point at Raluca as he speaks loudly, but not yelling. "I am asking you to open your mind. To stop making assumptions. I am offering you a chance to actually learn something about someone else rather than wallowing in self-righteous bullshit."

Slamming his hand down on the table he finally shouts, "And I did not come here to be insulted or preached at!" His voice suddenly drops low, a feral growl present as a reminder of the Gangrel clans reputation. "I advise you in the future to avoid assuming you know me, or any of my Circle. You do not. Your contempt for me is all over your face and laced in your words. Fine. Whatever. But do not assume my lack of agreement with you is born of ignorance or lack of understanding. I know your arguements well, because I considered them for years before I even became Kindred. To have you ignore what I am saying, or to hear only what you want is down right insulting. If you stopped for a moment you would realize that by your own faith, you have nothing to fear from mine, and if you do fear my beliefs, then perhaps it is because yours are not as solid as you think."

Dr. Swift had come to his feet in the same motion that his hand had come down on the table. He stands now, staring directly at Raluca, knowing that he had said too much in anger, but not caring. It had felt good.

Savage heart.... As he stares a small, grim smile touches one corner of his mouth.

5 suxx over 2 rolls to resist anger frenzy, rolled voluntarily as the topic would qualify as somewhere between "insulted in public" and "hours of frustration and delay" as Dr. Swift endures Raluca's ramble.

Date	Action	Roll	Result
2013-07-26 22:57:29	Dr. Swift rolls 7 to resist the beast (10 Again)	4, 7, 10, 2, 10, 7, 7, 2, 3	2 successes
2013-07-26 22:57:12	Dr. Swift rolls 7 to resist the beast (10 Again)	3, 1, 9, 2, 9, 1, 10, 3	3 successes

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