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Reading Twilight Crap.

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  1. #1
    Khalvin's Avatar


    I'll be honest. I'm pissed.

    DD. You need to focus your Venue bro.
    Five reason I don;t play Vamp

    1 I have trouble relating to parasites

    2 I'm not big on evil Chars(even if the evil is subtle)

    3 DD, you meta plot is insane

    4 the Venue is a giant Asa love fest(Not West's fualt I can explain this further)

    5 An Elder just got shot int he back it a plot bullet after being locked in plot cuffs of almost a year now.

    I'm going to let other post before I give my rant. Just know I have never been this pissed on this site. My keyboard is wet because I had to douse the flames.

  2. #2
    Benji's Avatar

    Knot
    Theo
    Occultation
    Knot

    Nimbus
    Knot appears, for a moment, as a marionette, roughly carved from wood and painted in a facsimile of life, bound up in a spiderweb tangle of it's own strings, that are pulled every-which way by unseen hands.
    Theo

    Mask of Tranquility
    Striking Looks (Roguish Good Looks) 2

    Yeah, I agree with the O-Ya issue. I seems to me that no matter what he did, no matter how well he rolled, there was going to be a squad of SuperSwat men waiting outside to headshot him.

    Your plots seem to go on forever, and while I'm perfectly willing to believe that the players miss something, it seems that NPCs have to come swooping in to advance the plot more often than not. If they have to do this all the time, then it's you're missing your audience when it comes to plot details.


    /me discreetly replaces the panes of his glass house with shatter-proof glass
    no offense but do i look like i understand anything?

  3. #3
    DrDog's Avatar

    Werewolf Lawyer
    Tiny

    I have my own complaint to make about vampire:


    I feel as though it is being heavily NPC driven. And that cheapens a lot of the game for me. It was extremely frustrating for me after Regina spent several months investigation and then executing an assault on Ramon only for House Oberloch to spring the Cavalry on him, thus invalidating everything Regina had been doing for all that time. I understand that it happens, that a PC isn't the hero every time, and that sometimes things do solve themselves. But I play games to be a part of the action, to be important on some level, not to basicly spend 5 months getting a diplomatic hello with house oberloch. That could have been done in two scenes, maybe three.
    The Dog Draped in Resplendent Finery of Shrieking Spirits.

  4. #4
    Premsyl's Avatar


    I can agree with this when it comes to some factors, but not all.

    O-Yama was stuck in that plot-hole for months, yes, and his player went along with it. The issue should have been dealt with before O-Yama ever broke his bonds. The idea that people should be upset because an enemy NPC nailed an e-suxx on a roll is a bit juvenile IMO.

    I, personally, don't feel the influence of NPCs in my Vamp gaming so much as being anything but standard NPC interactions. I'm not saying that this isn't different for anyone else, of course, just speaking from my own standpoint.

    As for that - This venue is the only one led primarily by Player Character leaders. The Prince is a PC, The Priscii are PC (with a minor exception for Konstantin who is a PC/NPC), Many Covenant heads are PC - the exception being the LS and CoC, and the LS went through a number of PCs before it was decided that nobody was up to the task.

    The dark politics, the intrigue of a Vampire Court and Covenant system, these are things driven almost exclusively by the PCs.

    Some of the action based plots - Horizon, the Homeless, etc, seem to be somewhat NPC driven and this is a matter of concern.

    That being said, Khalvin's original post was mangled, messy, and inflammatory. I wish these complaints had been brought forward by someone with a cooler head and a steadier hand.

    Edit: It seems someone went in and Edited Khalvin's original post to make it look like it was written by someone who was actually taking their time. Someone owes someone else a 'Thank You'

  5. #5
    S
    Steven

    I'll be honest. I'm pissed.

    DD. You need to focus your Venue bro.
    Five reason I don;t play Vamp

    1 I have trouble relating to parasites

    2 I'm not big on evil Chars(even if the evil is subtle)

    3 DD, you meta plot is insane

    4 the Venue is a giant Asa love fest(Not West's fualt I can explain this further)

    5 An Elder just got shot int he back it a plot bullet after being locked in plot cuffs of almost a year now.

    I'm going to let other post before I give my rant. Just know I have never been this pissed on this site. My keyboard is wet because I had to douse the flames.
    In Response...

    1. Vampires are how you play them. Personally I don't think either of my characters are Parasites. Mark has a Symbiotic relationship with his ghoul and blood doll and Elanah is well... Elanah.

    2. I am confused on how you being not big on Evil Characters has to do with not liking the Way DD Runs his venue. If it is just a General "Vampires are evil" I would say that is relative and your opinion

    3. DD's Metaplots are vast yes but I do not feel overwhelmed by them. Maybe its because My character has only been working on a small part of the pie...

    4. Asa love fest... Hmm, I wouldn't say that. Unless your looking at the Millar a Trois thread . Asa is one of the oldest characters on the Forums and is very powerful. It is understandable that he has a lot of power. I know I was there when he was acked. Asa is a good prince, he does not create enemies he cannot control. My only issue with Asa is that he is too well played, which isn't a bad thing, that it will be next to impossible to even appose him. Which is credit to his Player.

    5. I am inclined to agree that O-Ya being locked up for as long as he has been is a bit excessive but being as I was away when that started I do not know the circumstances of his abduction and have not been reading everything that goes on with him.

  6. #6
    DrDog's Avatar

    Werewolf Lawyer
    Tiny

    I have my own complaint to make about vampire:


    I feel as though it is being heavily NPC driven. And that cheapens a lot of the game for me. It was extremely frustrating for me after Regina spent several months investigation and then executing an assault on Ramon only for House Oberloch to spring the Cavalry on him, thus invalidating everything Regina had been doing for all that time. I understand that it happens, that a PC isn't the hero every time, and that sometimes things do solve themselves. But I play games to be a part of the action, to be important on some level, not to basicly spend 5 months getting a diplomatic hello with house oberloch. That could have been done in two scenes, maybe three.
    After reviewing the evidence, it was a mere 4 months, I stand corrected. (my math isn't very good; june, july, august, september october is 5 months, but starting the 14th of june and ending the 16th of october is only 4 months)

    Following up with Prem, I have to agree, the dark politics and status seeking and courts are all PC driven; and are in fact my favorite part of vampire. I also like plots, where outside forces: the brood, the plant people, the sewers, the human sacrificing prefect, etc. are done as well.
    The Dog Draped in Resplendent Finery of Shrieking Spirits.

  7. #7
    Yog-Sothoth's Avatar

    Victoria Stamford
    Fisher

    Presence ••
    Adamantine Arrow Status •
    Victoria Stamford

    Khal, I appreciate your initiative to try and address some issues that have come up on chat, but perhaps they could have been worded a little differently?

    DD. I love ya man. I do. The ideas behind your plots are compelling and interesting. Looking at them on the surface they are very excellent ideas. However, I feel that they are constructed a little too well. Impossibly well in fact. We spend months in these huge mega plot threads and there is no resolution or even progress. We are no closer to a solution after being through them than when we start. Dirge was messing around with the Homeless for 5 months or so, and she has not seen hide nor hair of the rev'rend in all that time. the reason dirge got the back seat to victoria was because of my growing frustrations at a wild goose chase all around the city. Dirge herself was a part of the homeless community. If she can't get through their network and even speak to the man than I don't see how ANYONE can.

    Then gangs of normal homeless folk all forming under a crusade and believing in vampires with no hard evidence and all choosing to join in the fight? No one believes in vampires, they have what is called the masquerade for a reason cause it is working. It should take more than the ramblings of a drunk hobo to raise an army to fight vampires (talking about jimbo here at the homeless shelter along with his nurse friend).

    Looking to Horizon. I can understand an organization breaking/bending a few rules because of power an influcence. But these guys have an army that could occupy Paris along with weaponry banned by treaty (ie: flame throwers). No private company can walk around with a military compound that tight, with that many soldiers, with automantic weaponry (illegal), flame throwers (very illegal), and grenades (very very illegal) for private citizenry. The organization as too much information on vampires...they know more about us than all of the player characters combined (and i'm including all the scholarly elders in the domain and their libraries in this statement).

    Every way we approach a problem is met with defeat and we end up where we start or we give up on the plots you give us and walk away. (points to the sewers that are impossible for the entire California national guard to clear out, yet are mysteriously not effecting the other splats that have toons that run around in the sewers. points to changeling characters and werewolf characters.).

    --i'm not even going to touch the impossibility of inferno. It think mentioning it says it all.--

    If these plots were scaled back with some measure of realism they would very fun and exciting plots that all of us could enjoy. However, people are getting frustrated at making no headway and spinning their wheels no matter what good ideas they come up with to solve a problem, only to have NPC's move in with all the answers or to solve the problem for us (points to regina and the oberlocks (sp)).

    Player inniative should be rewarded and not repressed. This may not be your intent and I hope you don't feel I am attacking you directly. If what I said can at least get you to look at the way things have developed in vampire and growing frustrations there then that is all I can ask. You are an awesome story teller when you put your mind to it, and I just don't want to see things progress badly for you or put you in a bad light.

  8. #8
    BloodiedClaws's Avatar

    Kharn

    here we go...

    personally I like the ideas behind alot of DD's plots, they are unique, most are pretty cool, and overall make for nice interactions between the players/NPCs/ect. in that they require the players to actually get off their respective asses and do something instead of sitting in their havens and fiddling with themselves. almost all the vamps that have been made a deputy have been scurrying around, from one thing to another, interacting with others and overall making for good RP. Thats always nice to see.

    My issue with the venue comes from a few things.

    1) the O-Yama situation where he was captured and places in a facility that had no way of being cracked open short of napalm and high explosive charges(up until recently, though that has changed due to NPC-Saviour Syndrome, will explain later), i understand that it should/would be hard for him to break free, but the facility was armed to the teeth, preempted all his movements, and set him against groups far larger than he could handle at every single turn, not to mention him only surviving as long as he did due to extremely lucky rolls(read: incendiary grenades were dodged due to sheer luck), this plotline has been going on for a very long time, with very little, if any at all, help to move the plot along, nothing has been found, nothing has been done to reveal any possible fixes, and they cant simply be slammed because they are better armed and armored than some countries' military forces. I wont even go into how the other splats would view this place, given all the activity going on there, Cthonic beings waiting to be summoned, "mages" with powers operating withing, not to mention the spirits the place has probably gathered with the activity inside, its a wonder that no Idigam or other powerful spirit hasn't already leveled the place.

    2) the homeless situation where the head homeless guys is better protected than some countries' presidents. I understand that alot of homeless are former military or prior service veterans, but that knowledge only goes so far. These guys are a little over the top for my tastes, and many others agree with me.

    3) what SDog said, i also found that very anti-climactic.

    4) The Reno situation. I'm sorry DD, but i found that to be complete bullshit. No offence to you, but that simply seemed like and excuse to keep your wife's toon alive, and it felt very very biased in my opinion, i dont know how many others feel the same, but i know many did not like the Reno situation because it made everyone feel like they could escape being Bloodhunted and everything would be A-OK as long as they made it out of the domain. will everyone who gets bloodhunted get to have their own personal playground set up?

    5) another thing from Reno. Ronnie's rape scene with Slade... I'm sorry but that was not only over the top, but against site rules, i'm almost positive that were i or many others here to post something like that, we could have gotten a perma-ban, or at the very least, a temp-ban for putting such crude material on the site, i took alot of offence when this was brought to my attention, but i'm a lowly peon on the site(despite being here for over a year) in the long run of things and my voice most probably has little sway

    6) one of the biggest issues people seem to have are that the plots seem to be heavily NPC-centric, needed to have an NPC sweep in to save the day or give you everything you need to get the job done in a way that if they hadn't, the situation would not get fixed. that makes for a heavy lack of fun for the players because it makes their toons seem like sideline assistants who're just there to help the NPCs along

    7) Inferno... where do i begin, there are many things about Inferno that bother me, mainly that it is far-reaching(when you think about it) in that it involves most, if not all, the other splats, albeit, in a roundabout way. unless the entire Inferno situation is homebrew, there should be a locus feeding the demonstuff there. One werewolf goes in there and that entire club is getting razed to the ground by a bunch of packs. that just doesn't sit well with me, given that it is supposed to be a vampire based plotline.

    I'll refrain from continuing, as i prefer to stay calm and dont want to lose my temper, but i believe those are the main points that have bothered me the most

  9. #9
    Khalvin's Avatar


    Prem. RnT volunteered. I thanked him for it.
    Yog, I just wanted to get the ball rolling. No one was taking intitiative.
    I'm not perfect, I'm also not an imbecile. :|

    Personal slights aside.

    I once had a vamp. He did not last long for Player reasons.
    I did everything I could to get him involved. To find a place for him.
    But a combination of my own lack of 24 hour vigilance to this site and quick posting on behalf of others locked Tapps out of the two public threads I had joined.(or tried)

    Seeing I would have to wait for a month before IC I had reason to do anything. I was left with a choice to make. RL I had some issues to deal with. My other Chars were laying left to the side. And Tapps had no way to work into any plot without using Meta Knowledge. Again, I should make it clear this is not DD's fault.

    Since then, I have tried to keep an eye on the venue. I'm not perfect, and it has never been a priority. Late night I would sooth BC over the O'ya insanity. I do what I can to thwart wrath, often giving a lot of my time to help the other players on this site move past plot troubles and ST-Player meltdowns.

    I did the same when the Other Vamp players snarled over what to do with Horizon, and then when dealing with Homeless zealots. All while short-circuiting the growing resentment toward Asa's rule.

    I may not play the Venue. But I see very well what is happening. Or at least a piece of the problem. My perspective is small. I have no finger in the Vamp venue. I feel that makes me impartial.

    So what is my issue? My first post listed the reasons I won't build a Vamp. But I purposely let the Vamp Players post first. It's their Venue. Here is my issue:



    DD, your Plots are not scaled well. If they were. homeless people would not be much trouble for e party of freaking Vampires. And an Elder Vamp would not be locked to table for Months.

    I kow scaling events and NPCs is hard. But it is not that hard.

    Second: This is related to scaling. Asa Clark rules this Court and his power is so strong PCs are afraid of him. That is good. The problem here is that every leader(PC and NPC) is locked tight is Asa's grip. For a game of social intrigue, this is bad.
    Where can Asa shine is such a situation. He is the ever present Tyrant. Newbs out of the loop have no where to go without joining in the choir. It is boring.

    Here the fix is introducing conflict. All good stories need conflict as I'm sure you all are aware.

    Last, I get a sense that your playing favorites DD. Laz gets a whole plot to himself. but O'ya is strapped to a table. This is by far a personal opinion. But if it went without being said others who share the same opinion would be left in the dark.



    I would not have posted if I felt DaevaDude would not appreciated hearing this. I would not have wasted my time. I have not slammed him. DD, you are imaginative and utterly cryptic. You make an excellent ST. Do with this feed back what you will.

    I may care too much. Posting this has opened my eyes to other issues completely unrelated, that may be part of my anger.

  10. #10
    Premsyl's Avatar


    Anybody who's got overt problems with Samael and Inferno needs to read the Inferno supplement for WoD. I read it back to front for ideas for Mortals and while DD's implementation is a bit heavy handed it is not home-brewed.

    Yog: Dirge did what? Ran around the city? I see two thread - Squatterville and Looking For the Rev. This only after Arnold had to complain to Regina to get Dirge moving along on the task. It seems kinda crazy that you would have grievances for not getting an mulligan after two threads of "U seen teh Rev?"

    Also, I play World of Darkness looking for unusual situations that are nigh unexplainable and somewhat over the top, like a company with more power/resources than would otherwise be possible.

    BC: As far as I know you were all wine & roses until O-Yama failed to escape, at least in any official sense. If you really had a problem with him being incarcerated like that then your complaints might have come to the attention to all the STs in a formal complaint months ago rather than right now. You're sending the steak back to the kitchen after you've eaten all but one bite, complaining that it was underdone.

    Khalvin: If you think Asa is in any way invulnerable then you've lost me completely. It's the same thing there with any other "Massively Scaled Plot" if the vamps could actually work together on a large scale to get some stuff done then it's likely that they could get a lot more done.

    Also we're dealing with 60-160XP characters here. I know it's easy to forget around here but that's a lot of xp. Enemies should not be easier, players should be smarter.

    I'm not saying that Horizon hasn't presented insurmountable odds. It, if anything, should be scaled down, but it sounds to me like you guys all want an Easy-Button.

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