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  1. #41
    Strix's Avatar

    Strix

    2
    PRE

    Strix only partially paid attention to Fisher and Wayland talking about the degeneration of martial arts over time, though since Strix had picked up on using Madison as an example, as well, he ended up throwing an apologetic look of his own in her direction. When Rory spoke again, he turned his focus back to him, listening and finally humming before speaking up.

    "Honestly, the only value we each have — the only value I have, is the value I ascribe to myself. We all have different views, we all look at a person and put a certain value on them — friend, foe, he's hotter than me, she's more talented than I — but only I can really decide what value I have for myself. A person who thinks they are worthless will give themselves a very low value, think nothing they accomplish has a worth, even if they are truly a genius at what they do and people continue to praise them. 'Oh, they're just being polite,' they might say, but not believe them because they also don't put value on what others say." Strix rubbed the back of his neck, then he shrugged. "Is it an unbiased value we put on ourselves? For the most part, probably not. People tend to have a certain few of themselves that is very hard to change without definite proof that they do something great or something terribly wrong."

    He wasn't sure if he had picked up correctly what Rory had meant to ask with his question, but it was still his view.

    There was always a way to improve yourself, but why care particularly whether person x believed him to be hot or not. We'll see if they'd care about any level of hotness in a person when they were stuck somewhere and needed a car fixed, for example.

    "Personally, I think I'll just take the value I place on myself over what any random stranger or person would give me. I'm not in a place where I really need to worry about what people think my value would be. Maybe if I'd be a politician and was out to win voters over, then I might think differently about it."

  2. #42
    Yumyumcrow's Avatar
    Campanella
    Campanella

    Campanella
    Ingrid

    2
    PRE

    Zelda


    Zelda watched the conversation ebb and flow. With a certain flair, she bobbed her head as Rory spoke up.

    "You speak of the inherent virtue of our common humanity? Perhaps, oui. Yes. But I find that we humans are inherently selfish and whatever inherent value we possess as human beings is lost in all those conflicting layers of subjective value that we find piled on us by others."

    She made a shrugging motion.

    "In the battle between the abstract and the subjective, it is the subjective that wins. It is the tragedy of our times. The triumph of the abstract only happens with enlightenment, no? To truly express one's own value, one must recognise the value of others, yes? And it is this battle between values that drives human history. Don't you find?"

    She was definitely looking at Rory now.


    This is a SHADE. Allocating 3 dots to PRES 4 and Academics 2

  3. #43
    Fisher's Avatar

    Fisher

    Extempor. Affinity: •••••
    Eidetic Memory

    2
    PRE

    "Well, if value is subjective that's a pretty depressing and hopeless state," Fisher said looking at Strix. "I mean what if the entire world believe someone was worthless and should just off themself for being such a useless drain on society? Does that suddenly make you or anyone else worthless? If only what we think of ourselves matters then if someone says they are useless and worthless, but they are the most celebrated and accomplished person in human existence, does that make them worthless?"

    Fisher looked at him honestly tying to feel out an answer for him. She obviously had an opinion on the subject, but rephrased is subject in a way that she hoped would allow him to see her point.

    "It boils down to if a person believes in absolute truth exists divorced from reality or if truth is only as it is interpreted by an observer. With the former you can have true morality and a foundation to attach worth with the later then everything is meaningless. If it is all subjective then why can't I decide someone is worthless and then kill them? Why is it wrong, or is it? Does society set rules for behavior or are the rules of behavior tied to more absolute truths regardless of what society says?"

    Fisher looked to Rory and everyone else.

    "Exactly I think that a subjective worth is meaningless, but there is an intrinsic value that is completely removed from contextual value and regardless of how one feels about it." Fisher turned to Zelda. "To some extent that is the story of history. Why do people seek to rule over or dominate others? Some of it is to hoard resources for survival, but many rulers sought immortality through legend, monumental building projects, or military victory and conquest I would argue in part to validate their own existence. To prove that they are of value, if you will."

    All of this was a huge gray area for Fisher. It was hard to argue for morality when she didn't believe in it, luckily she was mainly arguing about intrinsic worth and that she could agree with. Everything was of value regardless if people recognized that value or not.

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  5. #44
    Aurora's Avatar
    Aurora
    Spells
    Striking Looks
    (Riveting)
    Presence
    (Confident)
    Fame
    (Entertainment)
    Madison Cross
    (Sleeper ID)
    Gnosis
    Aurora
    Aurora

    Dedicated Magical Tool

    Multicolored copper bracelet with intricate loops winding around her right wrist.
    Nimbus

    The sweet, fragrant smells of roses mixed with lilacs emanate from her as she casts magic. The scent intensifies, bordering on intoxicating, when Life magic is cast. When Aurora casts Vulgar magic, the scent takes a nasty turn, to the putrid, nauseating odor of a rotting corpse. The stronger the magic, the more those around want to retch at the smell.
    Monthly Spells

    Monthly spells done on character sheet.


    Pulse of the Living World[POT 6]
    Organic Resilience[POT 6]
    (PrP Treasure Hunt)

    Active Spells: 1/6
    [Detect Substance]Bone
    Personal Spells: 2/3
    Vulgar:
    Mana:6/8
    WP:3

    2
    FAME
    +1
    SL
    4
    PRE

    Looking to Wayland with mock determination, “Just so you know, I can dig one hell of a hole.” She finishes with a grin, letting him know she was just having fun.

    The grin turned into a genuine smile as she looked to Rory, “Hey, no worries. It’s all good. As long as it wasn’t you saying something bad, cause then we might have an issue.” Clearly she was being playful as her eyes sparkled with mischief.

    Her face then turns serious as she thinks over the words being said. Somehow a fun, laid back convo got really deep. “Couldn’t one also use the example of schroeder's cat?” yeah, the Enchantress had some brains behind the blonde hair. “What we observe to be true, and what is true, are usually very different.” It’s all in how you perceive it as opposed to others.

    She then nods to Fisher, “I agree, if that is how value is determined, it’s really depressing. Then again, this is one heck of a deep and depressing convo for an art expo.” She then shrugs.

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  7. #45
    Rory's Avatar

    Rory Gordon
    Rory Gordon

    Status ••• (Academics) Theology Doctorate

    "But that's exactly what I mean by biased," Rory replied to Strix after listening.

    "You ascribe your own value, and say no one else's opinion matters. Is that true? Are you yourself solely responsible for determining your value to society? Do you contribute? Or to your family or loved ones?"
    The Scotsman smiled and held up a hand to beg a moment. "And I'm not suggesting you aren't or that you need to defend yourself -- only that such a... egocentric... resolution has to be biased. Some may value you more than you value yourself."

    He laughed softly at Zelda's question and shrugged.

    "I can't say I'm enough of a historian to make a blanket comment on what drives human history. I'm afraid I'm susceptible to looking at individuals." And their spirituality. But the conversation had turned from religion, and he wasn't one to force it back. Even though Constance was spiraling in to where he'd subtly been steering the conversation, he simply gave her a gentle smile rather than voice the logical conclusion.

    "But then again, I personally believe our greatest value is in how we touch other lives. And why would that be depressing?" he asked, turning the last over to Madison. "If I were to say I place the most value in who and what I love, and expressing that, isn't that something... beautiful? While self-valuation may be biased, isn't it necessary to aspire to something better?"

  8. #46
    Wayland's Avatar

    Wayland

    Public Name: Richard "Richie" Holt
    Wayland


    Health:
    Mana:
    WP:
    Spells (3/3)

    ??? (Cloaked, Pot 4)
    ??? (Cloaked, Pot 6)
    ??? (Cloaked, Pot 7)

    2
    PRE

    Wayland returns the smile to Faye, "No doubt!"

    "I'd like to think that, I don't really care what anyone else thinks, but like, we all seek approval from others right? So does that mean that, one's worth is really like, left to everyone else? Man I hope not, cause thats down depressing yo." Yeah, one's worth was in a large part based on the opinions of others, but the whole point of self worth was in having the ideal fixed in your mind, and convincing others of that truth. Bu those were his thoughts, and ones he wasn't willing to share with others.

    Still, the conversation was staying on topics that clashed with the image he tried to live, so perhaps. "Ima gonna go see if I can buy that robot thing. Before someone else does that is."

  9. #47
    Strix's Avatar

    Strix

    2
    PRE

    Strix was starting to feel like being back in debate class, where one topic was offered and then discussed until one party gave up or they all agreed they just couldn't find common ground.

    The deeper this little discussion grew, the more Strix's brow furrowed. There was one particular important truth, but they couldn't discuss it in front of Sleepers.

    "Absolute truth. It's a slippery slope, I think. You're, as far as I understand, trying to argue that without this 'absolute truth', humans," he put a strange stress on the word since he would rather have said Sleepers, "cannot attain morality. That it is something that, without, they would be unable to grasp right from wrong. Who decides what is right and what is wrong? Usually, it's society. Other times, it's someone else. Like...in religion, right?" He glanced over to Rory, shrugging. "As I said, I'm no expert but I know enough to know that there are...people," or more like nutjobs, but he was trying to remain polite, "who take whatever written word they use in their religion as 'absolute truth'. It's why there are some — not all — Christians who might be quick to quote good old Leviticus from the bible about how homosexuality is a sin and they deserve death for it."

    Strix frowned, looking at Fisher as he folded his arms, looking thoughtful. "The bible is, for these people, the Absolute Truth. It builds their moral high ground, that these men are 'worthless' because their sin is detestable or something. Is that the truth you speak about, because there are people who justify these things with their absolute truth. I find that pretty depressing. If I want to take a guy to bed, who are these people to tell me their value — thinking it okay to kill me for taking a guy for a ride — is more important than the value I have for myself. Nowadays, these people aren't that numerous as they might have been in the past, but imagine if the bible was a society's one and Absolute Truth, the one thing they look at when building their morality...actually, wouldn't Europe's Medieval Age be pretty much a good example? Repressed and backwards."

    Rory's comment made Strix scratch his chin thoughtfully, but his shoulders lifted once again in a shrug. "Sure it's biased, maybe even a little egocentric. It can't really be anything else, considering that my self-value is based on experiences I went through. Yours is no different, however, no less biased — even if it might sound more romantic than mine, but is no less egocentric. I didn't take offense to your words," he said quickly, straightening his stance, "I'm just saying, picking up where you left off, I guess. You place value in how your actions touch other people's lives, yet that is solely a value you may hold. The other person might very well not share your view in how little or great a way you influence their life. Even showing your love for another or for what you like is not unbiased, it can't be because your own view influences it."

    Finally, he gave up and pressed the heels of his hands against his eyes, shaking his head a little to dispel the dots dancing before them when he pulled them away again.

    "In the end, humans are" he stopped a moment, clearly searching for the right word before continuing with, "programmed, if you like, to a certain degree to be influenced by subjective views. Society, friends, family, the media, they all influence us, change the few we have about one thing or another. Like Zelda said: Subjective wins. But," he shrugged, again, because he was doing that a lot, "ask me another time how I ascribe my own value, and it might have changed. Here's a guy talking who has been trying to isolate himself from parts of society for a while before learning better of it."

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