John made his way into the Avalon once more, Sense Martha offered John a chance to join the Ordo he had become very curious and is loyalty called into question. So he went straight to the most reliable source the Ordo can offer when it comes to who they were, the Grand Wyrn himself. John had slightly hoped that this meeting would have been held at the Ordo's Academy but he could understand their concern after the last Grand Wyrn was ashed there. John could see how letting strangers on their home turf might make them feel uncomfortable.

Joseph walks in wearing a dark suit with an indigo-blue shirt under it. He's curious as to why Mr. McLean wanted to meet him here. And given the Chapter House recently.... The Avalon felt like a safer place to be. That and it doesn't carry the embarrassment of watching time fly by.

John was sort of wondering around reading the Domain announcements while he waited. When Joseph walks in John stops what he is doing and walks over to him.

"Good Evening Grand Wyrn Hartman, I am honored that you decided to take time to see me."

John says respectfully, he was well aware that he didn't have to Call Joseph by this Ordo title, seeing that John was not of the Ordo. However considering that the Ordo would be the reason John asked to speak with the Grand Wyrn it seemed appropriate.

"Good evening to you as well Mr. McLean." Joseph returns the respectful greeting. Curious as to whether that title would become the new thing or if it was just a slip. "It's not a problem at all." He leaves the statement hanging, waiting to see where this was going.

Well it seemed John would get right to the the point,

"Well I will get right to the point if your don't mind Grand Wyrn, I would like to talk to you about the Ordo, and what it has to offer I kindred like myself."

John did not want to talk about this publicly, he didn't want start an rumors about his loyalties.

"Would mind if we talked more about this in private?"

Joseph goes completely still for a moment before resuming what would pass for normal human body movement. "Sure, lets find a room." Now this was interesting, who's John been talking too?
Finding a room for the two of them Joseph closes the door once John has entered. "So what got you interested in the Ordo?"

John Nods,

"Yes Grand Wyrn, I have been talking to Herald Villiers quite a bit lately, and during our talks she suggested that maybe I would well suited for the Ordo."

John did not go into a lot of detail about He and Martha's Conversations considering she had asked secrecy on their project, and in all honesty John felt that those conversations were private, and the whole domain didn't have to know about what he and the Herald were talking about.

John continues,

"I was hoping you could tell me what the Ordo had to offer? How exactly would I be suited for it? I am not a scientist, I'm a PR, New Media, and Journalism guy."

John really wanted to say was "so how are you useful to me, and how will I know you guys won't just fuck me over." but he would work up to that he wanted to see what The Grand Wyrn's pitch was, if he had one.

John trusted Martha but he did not know Joe or Max every well. John knew Martha would treat him with respect but what about the others? If John left the Movement and joined the Ordo, would he be walking into a trap of conformity and stagnation? Yes, the Ordo talked a lot about change and progress, but so did the Carthains but by the way Martha reacted to his suggestion that the Ordo and Movement are not so different, she seemed rather hesitant if not unsettled by the comparison. Ultimately John wanted to know the difference between the Ordo and Movement. he wanted to know exactly what he would be leaving and what he would be getting, that is where the decision would lie, would John be better off in the Ordo or the Movement.

"What the Ordo has to offer? Hm.." Joseph picks at a nail trying to figure out how to respond to the question, it was not what he had expected in the least. "The Ordo offers a place that would allow you to explore what you are and start on the path to overcoming it." He chuckles knowing what it sounds like. "Honestly, it is what you make it."

"Some of my earliest memories are of disappointment, though I couldn't tell at what." He looks at a hand. "Eventually I realized that I had expected more from this." The hand raises to obscure a light above Joseph. "Something better." After a moment the hand falls and Joseph looks at John with a calm smile. "I miss seeing the sun, I can almost remember what it was like to stand outside. But for you?"

"You do not have to be a scientist to be a Dragon, you don't have to dedicate your unlife to the pursuit of becoming the ultimate predator. I've known Dragons that seem barely more than base savages, yes some were Gangrels, some weren't. Others have made me look like a frat boy who found a book that told him how to make fire. It's hard for me to explain honestly, Martha can probably put it better than me."

"Though I have a question for you. Are you ok with what you are now or do you find the weakness of our selves to be a hindrance?"

John listens intently trying to understand where Hartman was getting at it appeared to be more talk of transcendence; this was not exactly what John was looking for. He wanted to hear something new, Carthains preached political transcendence, to form a perfect government for all kindred (at least when Carthian movement was in its purest form and not bogged down by greed and pride). And the Ordo preached personal transcendence, neither of which John had any issue with.

When the Grand Wyrn asks John if he was ok with being a vampire John answers honestly.

"How am I supposed to be ok with what I am right now? I am constantly at war for control over my own body. I can't be around Mortals without worrying that I might lose control and tear into their throats and sucking the life out of them. I used to feel so much, I used to truly know what love was but now I almost only feel lust, I used to truly know how my fellow man suffered and Flourished now I only feel an echo of that as I try to manipulate them for my own gains. No sir I am not ok at all with what I have become."

There's a small smile. "I was and still am the same way. That is why I joined the Ordo. Along the path to becoming something More we take small steps. What ultimately will be little things are right now far more useful than talk of Becoming can ever be. I have been a member for not even two decades yet. I can not even say I am close to becoming something More." Joseph pauses as he considers his next words, wondering just how much he can say before giving away too much.

"What I can say though is that the Ordo does possess means to at least help resist what you detest. What we do has very real affects, it is nothing flashy like the Arts practiced by the two religious sects of our kind but it works."

Now Joseph spoke of change, small change and slow change but change none the less. Change of an introspective nature, the slow and aganizing change of Kindred nature itself. However, what about Kindred socity.

"I understand what you are saying, small minor changes that eventually build up into something greater."

John pauses trying to figure out his next words,

"But allow me to be frank with you Grand Wyrn, because if I am going to completely change the direction of my requiem I several concerns I wish to express."

John pauses again before speaking,

"I will openly admit I am an Idealist, perhaps even naive. I believe in the ideas equal opportunity and the belief that society can be built into something greater than what it already is, this is why I originally joined the Carthain Movement. I believe that Vampires, just as much as mortals cannot stagnate and stand still, we must move forward or die. Even if I were to leave the Movement and join the Ordo I would not leave these ideas behind, with the experimentation and study of Vampiric nature there must also be experimentation and study of Vampiric society, at least that is what I believe. I also believe that everyone is worthy of a measure of respect despite age, potency of blood, or height in rank, and just because I am a neonate does not mean I do not have opinions and ideas that are worth listening to. I have to know that these beliefs and ideas will not be suppressed or beaten out of me. If anything I would like to see these ideas refined in to something that all kindred can benefit from.”

John hoped that he had not come across as to much of a radical, but he felt that the Ordo should know that if he left the Movement for the Ordo, he would not just drop everything he held dear and join in lock step with what everyone else thought was right. He also hoped that the Ordo would support in his exploration of Kindred society, John's attempt to understand it fully and then see how it can be improved.

Joseph listens to John's declaration?...requests? calmly and with some thought. "The Ordo would not stop your study of our society unless it turned into something possibly detrimental to us." Which Joseph hopes comes across as "don't go and piss off the prince". There's a hesitant smile as he wonders if it did. "In regards to the lovely state of hierarchy and politics, yes we do have a ladder. Though the Ordo here is far more lax than other domains I have been through." Joseph picks at the sleeve of his shirt. "So some of us do hold more weight in debates, though if your idea is good enough we shouldn't be arguing against you. We would only seek to suppress any ideas that would be detrimental to the Ordo, or at least to keep them amongst us until we are sure that there won't be any problems. We all follow our own path."

John listens to Josephs response with great interest, He had told John what he wanted to hear that was a good thing. of course John wouldn't be trying to over throw the Prince, but he wanted to be sure the Ordo wasn't just a mini Invictus but with cooler powers. However with these folks, it sounded like everyone did have a voice, just some more Credible than others which was understandable.

John thinks for a moment,

"Thank you Grand Wyrn, I can't think of anything else I need to ask, I guess is there anything you would like to add about the Ordo something that I should know if I chose to leave the Carthians and join the Ordo? Some major difference between the two Covenants that you have notice that I should keep in mind?"

John asks out of curiosity, he didn't want to leave any stone unturned, he to wanted to know if he was making the right decision one way or another.

Joseph moves to respond and then pauses briefly.

"Like I said we have a hierarchy. There is an .. unfortunate.. title that comes with being new to the Ordo. Before learning a thing or two." He looks John in the eyes and then looks away. "It's Slave..." Joseph chuckles. "Though if you are diligent you can pass that quickly. And yes it is not a pleasant title."

"The major difference between the Ordo and the Carthians, is that we ultimately look within for change while they look without. We are about the change of ours and they are about changing our society."

John stiffens at the title he would have if he joined,

"Will I be treated as such, or is it merely an unpleasant title?"

Joseph had confirmed everything John had always known about the Ordo and Carthians he liked that.

"Some do treat new members as such and some do not. It really comes down to the individuals and who your mentor is. Though I doubt any of our current number would take to treating you in that manner. It would be a waste to drive someone interested away." Joseph frowns as he speaks, being treated like trash is not pleasant. Though his time had not been terribly unpleasant.

John nods,

"Alright, Well I guess... I'm going to to have to think about this. Thank you for your time Grand Wyrn this has been very helpful."

John offers Joseph a hand shake, John's words were sincere but he was still a little confused, it was clear if John wanted to learn more about the inner workings of the Ordo he would have to make the leap. John however, was unsure if this was a leap he wanted to make.

"Not a problem, it is best to think before you jump." Joseph shakes John's offered hand.